Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:14:17 -0800 From: "Jason Nordwick" <nordwick@citycom.com> To: "John Sconiers" <jrs@enteract.com> Cc: <freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Frustrated with bsd Message-ID: <029c01be1cfa$35ca6190$f73c1c26@yasmeen.citycom.com>
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From: John Sconiers <jrs@enteract.com> >> >I believe it gives you an example.... >> No, the best example you get is from section 2.2.3 on how to do a >> minimal install from an MS-DOS drive by copying files from the CD. >> This is lacking in two regards: first, it only shows you for a >> minimal install, and second, it does not refer to where to get >> files from the FreeBSD archives. Ideally, you want to explain >> what each directory on the ftp archive is for. I remember about >> six years ago, installing Linux Slackware. They had a concept of >> "disk sets." These sets would have a small title (such as "man," >> "xc," or "info") that under the title directory there was numbered >> images of floppies (I think I remember "info" being 3 disks, so you >> would have c:\linux\info\info[1-3]). Obviously this was to make the >> naming and process similar for floppies (floppies were named info[1-3]). >> But the installation instructions were painfully obvious to tell you >> what each collections did (there were probably about 15-20 of them) and >> how to setup you drive. It was not how it was setup, but how the docs >> explained it all that was important. >> >Then you should buy a cd-rom set....you could also put the minimum install >> >a a zip disk or a small fat partition and add stuff as you need it. >> For someone new, buying the CD is the easiest. Deciding what is necessary >> for >> a minimal install or what they need is beyond the beginner level. When >> asked, >> I don't even know if I could determine what was necessary for my version of >> minimal. > >It all depends on what you need to run... True, so by your silence, I assume that you agree that someone new to the system cannot determine what they need to run. > >> >When your new to a product it may be hard at first but if you read and ask >> >good questions you can get through it. >> Asking good questions is a pain in the ass. First, it is very difficult to >> ask good questions when you new to something as foreign as UNIX coming from >> Windows. Second, if you bought a software package and you had to call tech >> support a couple of times to install it wouldn't you feel that they did not >> do their job in living up to their promise of easy to install? > >Key words...*BOUGHT A PACKAGE*...implies warranty etc...Maybe a few of us >should offer paid support for FreeBSD...hell redhat does it...any >takers email me off the list :-) > Those words are not key. Image you are sent an AOL CD (hard to imagine heh), with the description of "east to install," the manual they provide doesn't answer the very simple questions that you have. You call tech support and their response is that it is easy to install, you just need to read three seperate documents just to install the thing. Additionally, you are told that it is easy to install, you just didn't look hard enough. Is this acceptable, simply because you didn't pay money for the license to use it? Alternatively, replace the words in the sentence: "Second, if you were given a software package and you had to call tech support a couple of times to install it wouldn't you feel that they did not do their job in living up to their promise of easy to install?" If you think that buying a product somehow entitles it to a better stature (such as easier to install), then you along with a few other people, are helping to perpetuate that gross stereotype. >From here your only leaving yourself with the idea that it is free software, so it is okay if the install does not go as smoothly, or you would have said something, I guess. >chapter two in the FAQ is nothing but about installation...which file do I >download (one of your previous questions) etc.. Chapter two and for of >the handbook discusses installs as well. The Complete FreeBSD book is >nothing more but helping you setup and maintain FreeBSD...If you read the >FAQ, Handbook, Readme etc. I don't think you would've had a >question....Even a search of the mailing list using the key\words >install and instructions gave helpful info. I don't think (maybe you over >looked it) you looked as hard as you could have or claim to.... > At the top, remember that even if the information is there, a non-linear search through two difference source is not sufficient. A step-by-step guide is necessary to rectify the documentation side of the problem. This is just a reincarnation of the argument you were making at the top of email, nothing really new. Section 2.1 is close, but not authorative enough. It says that here are a few suggestions for what you might what, but lacks any explanation or description of what the directories do, and also doesn't tell what the hierarchy you need will look like on disk. I talked about the handbook section 2.2.3 earlier, and the same thing still applies: it is not specific enough; check earlier argumentation. >make life a little easeir and use 2.2.8 > True, pre-ELF would be a better idea in terms of some of the ports problems, but for Os installation it does not mean anything. >You have to realize this mailing list (-questions) has to get more than >400 messages a day ....Now not only are you answering a question that >someone could have looked up but the person on the other end seems to >only have a bug up their ass and flame them but claim they looked >extremely hard when to you the answer is right in front of their face. > Why do you keep insisting that the answer is "right in front of their face" when I don't think that you have shown really exists. Look at my earlier comments about the FAQ and Handbook entries. >You don't have to know anything about ppp. You can right a shell script >or small gui that does ppp setup where you ask for the parameters and do >the actually work behind the scenes. IE You provide boxes for a ip and >gateway dns etc...they click apply and behid the scenes you run ifconfig >-a whatever....This would take little knowledge at all...even if you >didn't know x you make a command line script using bash or whatever... > This PPP stuff is besides the point (and actually to do line autodetection of login method you can't just make a shell script). >I'm glad your learning but you need to help as well...heck build a website >devoted to the installation of FreeBSD.....And as I've alredy said...get >rid of 3.0. I can send you a 2.2.7 cd-rom (assuming you want to provide >or pay for a blank. > I have been running -current for over two years now. I just don't think that our install is as bomb as many other people think, and that we need a slightly better install documentation. Why do you defend such a position without thought. Look at the email you just wrote. The only argument that you collapsed to is that FreeBSD is not purchased so it can provide mediocre installation support documentation. This is exactly what I meant when I said that some people will not open their eyes and admit that things are not the way they wished. >JOHN > -jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
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