Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:07:13 -0600 From: Stephen Hilton <nospam@hiltonbsd.com> To: "Paul Robinson" <paul@iconoplex.co.uk> Cc: <chat@FreeBSD.ORG>, <nik@FreeBSD.ORG>, <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, <wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl>, <wes@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Open source (was RE: Hi!Dear FreeBSD!) Message-ID: <20030219150713.474855b5.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> In-Reply-To: <IPEDKJGCDFHOPEFKLIDHGEJGCCAA.paul@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3E5376A5.9EB8FC3@mindspring.com> <IPEDKJGCDFHOPEFKLIDHGEJGCCAA.paul@iconoplex.co.uk>
next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:19:04 -0000 "Paul Robinson" <paul@iconoplex.co.uk> wrote: > OK, I've moved this over to -chat where it belongs more than -hackers, > trimmed the CCs, and turned this into a bit of a rant. For those just tuning > in, Terry thought it would be a good idea to write a full-on GIS map > rendering system so you could find your local user groups in a cool way. > That's besides the point. Apologies for length of mail, but be thankful this > is now only 35% of the size it was going to be before I trimmed it - I had a > fun lunchtime! :-) > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Sure, if you'll let me point out again that the original poster > > wanted the maps to be clickable. 8-) 8-). > Actually I had the "cool" idea regarding a way to find others in my geographic area that have an interest in BSD, and as Nik pointed out, it is a re-invention of the wheel as the perl mongers already have done a similar style web interface. Whether this was implemented via GIS, GPS, latitude & longitude, etc... was not even a thought when I posted, and I am surprised that GIS is something that is still a mostly closed source type application. This is a recognized area of interest for many people, and with a little research I found an ongoing project, practically in my backyard. http://mapserver.gis.umn.edu/ This project is not a complete solution, but is a major step in the right direction. My suggestion for a web locator for BSD interested people was not intended as a call for developers time to blaze a new trail, there are many more *important* fish to fry out there, it was a selfish request to make it easier to find other BSD interested parties in my geographic area for possible educational and social interaction. I have joined the list for my closest BSD user group, and look forward to attending my first meeting, but finding a date and time where the existing group members can meet seems to be a never ending problem. Not having the detailed history of the development of UNIX, and what wheels are already invented is a high-bar that is presented to people new to FreeBSD, it is also one of the reasons that I arrived at FreeBSD as my personally favorite OS. The ability to not repeat history, due to the continuing study and in depth understanding of history, is something that I find lacking in a lot of places now. This does not IMHO seem to be a problem with this project, the guidance of people who have "been around the block before" seems to be ever present, and welcome. FreeBSD seems to me to be a place where experienced professionals mentor and guide the new talent, hopefully the new gurus will be kind enough to share their knowledge and history of computing with their following generation of proteges. From regularly reading several FreeBSD lists it has dawned on me that my posting to hackers is probably not a good thing, mostly because I am not a programmer, so my ability to contribute there is minimal, but as a read-only lurker I find the discussions fascinating, and do gradually gain a better overall understanding of some of the concepts and subjects. > GIS != Imagemaps. :-) Approaching this from another angle, documentation != vi. But when a person without the necessary background in the fu of documentation wants to *learn* or accomplish a task, a text file created in *vi* may be just what is needed at that point. :-) > > FWIW: the important gateing factors on any Open Source project are: > > > > 1) Motivation (a problem to solve, that people can agree on) > > You don't get paid for OSS work, so you'll work on what you feel like, and > only when you feel like it. This is completely reasonable. At the moment I'm > working with somebody on a proposal for taking over the competition at > the5k.org and the one thing we're trying to avoid is filling it with > bureaucracy simply because to do so would bring it to a grinding halt. We > deal with that rubbish all day long - we don't need to do it all night long > too. :-) > > > 2) Working code (something that comes close to solving the > > problem, or from which people can see a solution) > > This is critical, and is the reason why we're now seeing more "mainstream" > applications like OpenOffice appear on open operating systems. If you don't > have a decent framework that is easy to work with, it's perceived to be too > risky to try and build something on top that is relatively complicated. > Also, companies are starting to realise that giving away code is not the end > of the world. > > > 3) Community (communications and peers to provide a context in > > which the work can take place) > > Or in the case of some mailing lists around here, people scream at each > other... The ability to take a task or problem and distill it into a outline, followed by the mathematics to model and create a flexible and elegant solution is what makes the guru programmers such a valuable resource to a project. But these skills do not always go hand in hand with the ability to interface with the control structure, end user, or even with co-developers. System analysts, project managers, documentation writers, beta testers, technicians, focus groups, end user feedback, etc... are all examples of the interfaces and structures needed to create a "whole" solution. To marginalize any of the parts of the "whole" only weakens it. Why the discussions from such brilliant minds sometimes dwells on the the reasons why something will not work, and cite books and papers to prove this is beyond me. I would like to reference a very important title that has helped many people and projects to succeed: _Little Engine That Could_ by: Watty Piper Without the people who have disregarded others views of "the way things work" we would have a nicley documented by scribe description of our flat earth on clay tablets. > > > A lot of people have #1, so they declare a Source Forge project, try > > to cookie-cutter #3 (impossible to do), and leverage having #1 and #3 > > into someone creating #2 (also impossible to do). > > Indeed. Sourceforge is littered with the debris-like manifestations of good > intentions. But the good intentions do stand on their own, the original project may have fallen by the wayside, but can we really measure the impact of a meeting of minds, that may have never occurred with out the focus point of a shared idea. The pool of people capable of writing really good code is quite limited, so an abandoned Sourceforge project could be the future focus point to join one of these gifted programmers with others, who can provide support in the other areas, leaving the code hacker to do her best, at hacking code :-) > > As a matter of fact, I claim that, given any #2, I can *find* #1, > > and *create* #3. -------------many paragraphs snipped-------------- -------------------------------------------------- > There is all the cultural stuff as well, but that's more orientated to the > Gen-X idealism of how licensing should work. In the end, that'll fall on > it's face too, but that's for another day. This mail is long enough already. > :-) Yes, the dreaded licensing quagmire. So many speak about freedom and giving back to the community, here is my two cents worth. The BSD type license is the model of true sharing and freedom, without it Apple would still be a closed system, and I would have never spent $ to purchase one. With FreeBSD as a foundation, my wife now uses an iMac as she continues her education, and tells me how much nicer her workstation is at home, than the machines in the schools lab. And I do not have to dread maintaining her workstation, it is a joy to see it happily purring away on its very solid foundation. I see many examples in the BSD world of the beauty of our license, people like to live in comfort and security, and when that basic need is fulfilled, the sharing of their knowledge, without strings attached, is a true indicator of their desire to help create a better world. The fear of my intellectual property being "stolen by X" is exactly that, a fear, and nothing more. Create your code, write your books, invent your widgets, hold the rights to these devices to secure your comfort, then when the time is right for you, free the ideas. What is wrong with others profiting from your work, I profit every day from this rich society, enhanced by people willing to share. Regards, Stephen Hilton nospam@hiltonbsd.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?20030219150713.474855b5.nospam>