From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 4 15:47:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28001 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:47:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27840; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:46:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02304; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806042140.OAA02304@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Nate Williams cc: Mike Smith , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernfs/procfs questions... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:33:03 MDT." <199806042233.QAA04941@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 14:40:28 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > I argue shouldn't be exposed to the users then. If it's exposed, it > > > should be documented. In other words, sysctl should go away since very > > > few (if any) of it's knobs are documented except accidentally. > > > > You aren't clear *which* sysctl should go away. If you mean sysctl(8), I > > hope you will be removing gdb, nm, hexdump, etc. as well, as these are > > all user-unfriendly tools designed for studying and/or adjusting the > > state of complex, undocumented things. > > But users aren't expected to use gdb/nm/hexdump, but sysctl is. Many of > these parameters *should* be tweaked to get better performance, avoid > errors, etc... Sure, and I think we all agree that a better frontend for these parameters is required. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be exported, nor that sysctl(8) isn't useful and adequate for some tasks. > > sysctl(8) is a tool for writing scripts, and performing tasks which > > have been previously documented. It is not a user-friendly interface, > > however it still exists to serve a purpose. > > What tasks have been documented that are used by sysctl? > > Tell me where 'sysctl -w net.inet.tcp.rfc13230=0' is documented. (And, > no I don't consider it's presence in rc.network documentation. :() Its documented in the FAQ (or at least it was). It's documented in a couple of manuals I wrote for customers for whom it was relevant. I'm quite certain that it's used as infrastructure in documented applications elsewhere. These are cases where the presence of sysctl(8) has made it possible to do things for which otherwise another application would have had to have been added to pollute the application namesepace. As it is now, the correct interface to the rfc-related sysctls is in /etc/rc.conf and the supporting documentation. Sysctl(8) provides a convenient mechanism whereby rc.network can manipulate these parameters and many others, without requiring a plethora of basically identical applications. As you said before; KISS. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message