From nobody Fri Aug 8 13:33:06 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz4jb5Cp3z63qsD for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:33:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz4jZ4P74z3fNH for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:33:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e8e2b50f8f1so1905073276.0 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 06:33:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1754660000; x=1755264800; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=o3rlmAGxCTtLhkzJm8I0WqCdk4J69PyuC8M6VAE1sDA=; b=ZyEcmK7DAQy4vIdMo4SsHgcZ98GsJQ7+VXXA5CN4KdKeqXTjjB9yrBkNh7WIHAvA7j iHzG4fr/wpqap57jqnmtqndpWWjh1BKEolCnuW60uWIERo6d1VZIm65wXJI74WO3yJiw iOAiQu0zPt4d2j02VZAWCqawvmDIbwf0ca8/GIPpqmdiUTl3VE7wmAez2H8k6+5+3H94 AclO3F7NLaeglb/7BpfkyP/q54IjGNOITcpdoDP7UbW6oXo3zI9odA8BMY6UDhB9MTCk DQtqGRMe2+qRRibWay5JXeAhyV087QhYGzmNtK4VlXnF2D3MHsgH+RlEiuSIFE1dDtZK r6CQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754660000; x=1755264800; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=o3rlmAGxCTtLhkzJm8I0WqCdk4J69PyuC8M6VAE1sDA=; b=jlXYTf44zV4ukvHxf0SS284PuL2sGE5wsqSnMCPDXWhoOwu/HQxEr4Y7xgiPold+oS cyLiwcrb1pNaqfClOCm0srKsZVMTEbGyCvpwwmfQyEHJ0gWP6rZDxMiukltZ7IuQKV7U E3pNKj7Ez0ZXhvTw0XBgcfdcpG72NLcx2zjXs6mzIvxJ8E3PcDA5hcUp8FVMnORNG2xK jruOTeM1Em9q50KEMN34GvS49Jh5qLYM+84jKzjyi5haB9nFSkHC8smNxbkq+NQRPIp/ NUAg+IlPM4pkduKRmGkbn3goD9jxFjbBSXGQtXu1xfd4xqwmjEHoXXUTPlmU4B2Tq4pv +MTA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCW84JHl7UifO1iTE4UUaLZOK1XXw74BVTrlxjLHUDtemxF8iORZ5hSTbR4pdu5ydJS7cl10YtxsMhZ94q1vIkU=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyVced7FrqZZipZTzwyX0IKFClKiAp/hU81qUqgOsEPTEnLuhdc jGLVUukcqrSKKq7CibLcNPjT8IK3RO2nfrSqXQLTZjYFbwejfxIRHnO1iAHqEiyxH1TLYUnQbFA eUa8= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvje4GplxukMMOj2mHSMSXzxxxyxk0zpt6znT6fdbYmxwP/l0vqmymd1/HZ63/ nlE6EcAxVRfxUJUcL18iJgPFSYNFMTC51yTQ29E/+uWa+FturC5bGDrx5i2BttGeG7brNqZyu00 47814aIiNdH3kOLJvxTjI7yMpmcEBsDyg5Yq5eC/ReNSLwrtefwleB9y/zzJCBS6n6INayFgJNU 8Am0d4Kz24ZHeH5DObE1dP8+BhU7neJ1cT+2hN/C6Vj91tPphhWghVmjrOxlkzg3yVeABWsvfoc 9YBgf0JSiET36o0/D3EOA4N/3AfjKJrE0fFwCy1MS1noQ0D99LRDY5Nkh0UNDmMQP5hkUuABAH2 YpGYRTih1lcQgloQNHpJ/InwOjCmetXDd62R6HlyxZchVSVvBHq9pWyfduGQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG1jeIbf3+4v/M/BF0ZmMiHHK2Z56RSQf3xg0lG3HiMohN9du3qK/F/NQLxUCN2Q4ukF3hKoQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:288b:b0:e8b:c3bf:ff92 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e904b632f14mr3194024276.30.1754660000396; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 06:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f181.google.com (mail-yb1-f181.google.com. [209.85.219.181]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-e8fd38912b6sm7207327276.37.2025.08.08.06.33.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Aug 2025 06:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e7311e66a8eso1924064276.2; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 06:33:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUOEBFT7LmZyNclJus0ANTtPW45CBGG/Mp8SCDoMpxFOm0R+qGEflzFC9im6QjTDwm11eDatpmOFQ==@freebsd.org, AJvYcCUvVH0X5F5I1OhJlXQDDrZSIIlXIvdw5kBDTaUCkCiQ9dveWxWWXkxLsns6sYYU4/FaARlp2fHWT75M8w6Cjfm/@freebsd.org, AJvYcCVu+Y4qRprC/o3pbimyjmgGBfhvIFehiVaQzKMWmhN2sgVmB5HuNa0vtLgRZUtKEnXiRo3L76fqA0+lLVpZ47mf@freebsd.org, AJvYcCX+gazQSP4tT4by4mpinlMWPDqTc7SGOY5I1Dn0Q/WF+XBgxa0PXNjtabtmGUMUH09+JxJ44EKYBPkEPQn12oU=@freebsd.org X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:9691:b0:71a:41be:133 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71bf0d3d579mr38267507b3.14.1754659998762; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 06:33:18 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> In-Reply-To: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:33:06 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXzqGzywySf5FkzDPcBmw7sfFlLK0wkARrY_ubvcey09Eqtam1ogQHAskrY Message-ID: Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Cc: Tomek CEDRO , Colin Percival , vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz4jZ4P74z3fNH X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > > Tomek CEDRO writes: > > Not really. So far "the FreeBSD standard" kept things "similar" for > > over 30 years. If we traveled back/forward in time we would still use > > the same approach to configure and run stuff. Maybe except pkg-add was > > replaced with pkg, but still all locations are the same, configuration > > files format, ports build, etc. > > I'm sorry but that's pure fantasy. In the last 30 years, we've switched > our init system twice, the main system configuration moved from > /etc/sysconfig to /etc/rc.conf, and we later added /etc/rc.conf.d and > per-service subdirectories. The ports tree is also completely different > from what it was 15 years ago, let alone 30: we've switched to staged, > unprivileged builds, we've added USES and FLAVOR, we switched the > primary identifier from the origin to PKGNAME, we switched to pkg (which > is a much bigger change than you seem to realize)... If anything, the > separation between base and ports is stronger now than ever, because we > used to allow ports to install files outside of ${LOCALBASE} and even > replace parts of the base system. Yes, but from user perspective these changes were easy to adapt to :-) > Packaged base has been in the works for a decade and it's going in. > There are rough edges, but we'll sort them out and the end result will > be much, much easier to manage for everybody than what we have now. By > the time FreeBSD 16.0 comes around, it will be second nature, and you > will have a hard time remembering what the fuss was all about. Looks like 15 will be a "great adventure", that just started with a pre-release and early testing feedback. I hope it turns out well in the end, as planned, I believe you know what you are doing, I really keep my fingers crossed, good luck guys :-) Maybe its just worth considering putting EOL to 14 after 16.1 is out? :-P > > > [...] packages installed from ports might depend on packages from > > > the base system [...] > > This statement is extremely dangerous. It touches clue of this > > discussion. It seems to reveal planning to totally break current > > FreeBSD design / architecture? So far "base" could work without > > "userland", provided consistent, coherent, and predictable working > > environment. Everyone had the same set of "base" tools where > > "userland" could be built on top, so every system could be different > > but had exactly the same base. I can see that "base" will not be > > coherent for everyone anymore. If ports start depending on base > > packages then circular dependencies will arise and this will be a > > Linux-like-mess, because there could be different versions of base > > packages for different port versions that will depend on different > > versions of base packages. Then all will be just a package and there > > will be no "coherent FreeBSD base" anymore right? Then 14-RELEASE will > > hit end-of-lie and people will be _forced_ to switch to 15-RELEASE or > > move away to different BSD. This sounds like FreeBSD is going full > > Linux :-( > > It's bad form to quote a large paragraph without summarizing, but this > is so unhinged I couldn't figure out what to cut. It's completely off > the wall, starting with the use of =E2=80=9Cuserland=E2=80=9D, a well-est= ablished term > meaning =E2=80=9Ccode that isn't part of the kernel=E2=80=9D, to mean... = something else > that I can't quite figure out. But also, there is nothing circular at > all about ports depending on base. That's the way it's always been, > even if we didn't explicitly record it in package metadata (apart from > the shlib login in recent versions of pkg). Its just fear, outlined by a speculation, sure, we don't know how this story ends, but this fear is shared and expressed here by many folks, that FreeBSD may turn into Linux, a place where lots of us been and never want to come back, not to mention any commercial closed source OS :-) Maybe a (wiki?) reference page with clear outline of benefits, goals, identified problems, and todos would cut all those speculations? Thanks! :-) Tomek ps/2: will this pkgbase allow running 15/16 on 2MB Flash and 8MB RAM router= ? :D --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info