Date: Sat, 07 Jan 1995 16:14:31 -0800 From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com> To: Wankle Rotary Engine <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Graphical installations and such... Message-ID: <29796.789524071@time.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 07 Jan 95 15:49:33 EST." <199501072049.PAA05164@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
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> Well I think this is the wrong thing to do. It sounds almost like people > want to turn FreeBSD into Windoze. Well forget it: that's a horrible idea. > FreeBSD (and UNIX in general) is *NOT* Windoze, pure and simple. Don't I'm sorry if you got the impression that this was what I had in mind. > I don't think a graphical install should be an option at all. (Sorry > Jordan: I know the thought of a pretty Tcl/Tk installation script makes > you all warm and squishy inside, but you can't paint with broad stokes > when all you have are small brushes.) You need to take into account the > lowest common denominator, and right now that's a text display. Supposing About the last bit, you're right. You can't really hope to do a UN*X-on-PC product like this _without_ such a ``submarine mode'' installation available for those who want or need to deal with the machine on a more crude level. Just think of a router, or an NFS server, or an NIS box - all possibly administered with little better than serial terminals (how well does Joerg's serial boot code work, anyway? :-). Sure, I understand the need for *alternatives*. But I disagree to my last breath that they consitiute any kind of majority! While I value Mr Paul's contributions enormously, I would have to be frank in pointing out to him that his situation is NOT the majority situation for most users. A VERY LARGE majority of the FreeBSD boxes out there have VGA (640x480) capable displays and cards at the minimum, and it would be *criminal* not to have a plan for perhaps eventually putting that to good use! This is the age old UNIX-diehard argument all over again! "A pretty face means nothing!" they used to say on the hill. Or they hid behind a mantra of "mechanism, not policy!" However, having the benefit of hindsight now, we can also faithfully conclude that this intransience on the UNIX-diehards' part was *stupid*! They just plain didn't understand (or want to understand) *presentation*; something which we have now come to understand is at least TWICE as important as actual content! "Gross!" you say? Don't believe me? Go talk to Microsoft. Talk to Lotus. Talk to just about ANYONE in the valley! If you want your baby to SURVIVE in today's software market, you MUST pay some attention to BOTH aspects of your software's development: Content and Presentation! I'm not suggesting that we put twice the effort of development into presentation, mind you, but we need to think seriously about it and spend *some* time on it. And we WILL, ok? :-) > Sure, you could come up with both a graphical and non-graphical install > to make everybody happy, but there's still the matter of cramming the > extra software onto the install floppies. Everybody, whether they want > a greaphical install or not, will have to carry a bunch of excess bagage > around. And don't hand me that line about installing from the CD-ROM: Oh give me a break! Haven't you ever heard of *separate installations*? Our experience with the 3-to-2 cram clearly showed us that we couldn't have one floppy set that did everything we wanted, so we've already branched out into the idea of creating *multiple* installation floppy releases. One set will probably be pretty beefy, with lots of happy options for people who are a little slow to start [but often become pretty sharp - don't %$^&*(#@! underestimate people so much!]. One set will be a reactor repair kit style install - all function and you gotta know how to drive it or you'll hurt yourself. This one will make people like you very happy and may even cause one or two pairs of underwear to be changed. Another set is a general repair kit, and maybe one set is an *upgrade* set. You getting the picture? We need to cater to a LOT of needs, not just yours and not just the fancy graphics people! What the hell do you think the Linux people have been doing all this time?? Why do you think it has such a BROAD user base? > (Also, you'd be surprised at the stupid things people will do when they > have 600 Mbytes of space to play with: Sun's Solaris 2.3 install goes > through all the trouble of loading OpenWindows 3.3 off the installation > CD just so it can run a text-based installation program inside a > shelltool window. I'm not making this up.) So, that's certainly not something we need to emulate! :) > Look: the X server alone is big. The X libraries are big. Statically > linked X binaries are very big. Tck/Tk is big. Just how were you planning > on fitting those big things onto the boot disk, hmmm? Sure, if you mount EASY. I only use 2GB disks as my boot disks. You're thinking in the past here, Mr Rotary Engine (god, I should have guessed! It's obvious now! :-). You're looking at this sea of aging PC equipment around you and you're projecting it as a much larger problem than it actually is. Sure, we have to support the old stuff, and there will be some minimal "FreeBSD lite" installation that *specifically targets* these aging old-before-their-time 386 relics and brings them up to an acceptable level of functionality. You want to convert one into a workstation? You lose! That's a stupid thing to do anyway. The shiny-new-486 crowd (of which there are an OVERWHELMINGLY large number!) has their own happy release which supports their CDs, and everything. No problem! Each gets their own custom-tailored solution. Jesus, have you looked outside lately? The prices are *falling*! I can get 2GB drives now for what I could buy 1GB drives just 8 months ago and there's no immediate end in sight. Stop thinking so SMALL for chrissake! Consider the market 6 months to a year ahead, instead. Some amount of "growing together" should be planned for in advance. > That's what this boils down to, folks: burying a couple of otherwise > simple operations under tons and tons of graphical manure, just to make > some simpletons happy. It's been established that UNIX, in general, Mr Paul, I love ya, but you're an elitist reverse-snob boob! :-) For the last time, those that want a graphical install will get one. I will personally see to it, if no one else does. Those who do NOT get a graphical install ALSO will not get one. They simply will not be encouraged to run it! They will be encouraged to run a *different* install. See how simple that works? :-) Jordan
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