From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 5 18:09:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96AC8106564A for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 18:09:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-gh0-f182.google.com (mail-gh0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4499B8FC0C for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 18:09:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ghbz22 with SMTP id z22so9068650ghb.13 for ; Thu, 05 Jul 2012 11:09:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=mQFq6hAxHnd1Ti6JzNUICMlzT9F0gwjRqNTl3zfYdyE=; b=Nl709aIvMIvehQ5Iowphhv8/emzgZMWIDJtB3Ka9mJK3mdIssYmXJRUJKfXLuD8Ehv gmoyHQcbSpnF7rRz36HQ3ReZQRjHY3fSaacu43gCFvOTWQo0Do2gjobE7unOpR4Lvv4y ZqS/VK/kn/2VrUrqDYeLW9sJ+WNY1Jeq4hV6c= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=mQFq6hAxHnd1Ti6JzNUICMlzT9F0gwjRqNTl3zfYdyE=; b=NhLN1k1eDwm2O7Jx2foeYXSIWSUAru0LcW5qHigL+Y4xYZLLVi68k4KUoNp99/GjKM cpud3HHPDQ2fXhLeWwgL826yNLEMMz0j87z6RV8pYXZtrPUQXLQBX30FIPEiVJ0WrY6H dQp/r/0yYAsmnab3Li3lyjoN4jQ2lx/9YGAKfvJNVhduwoQ6OGn8ZCEv2ZkCR4O28kjg ecF8QcU7e1zdW5kUVwJKE7VJHa0BJjpXSPOjbs00h83Rs0OdRZsukvaVJkqUEyNlrl+Q Jxv8TV5KCFn4o0ePt3YpTUflD7zZ220vSYHWCR2TOL4AEBbEcsOG9InTXmH2Ut5y90TK NB+g== Received: by 10.60.21.198 with SMTP id x6mr6028285oee.24.1341511746381; Thu, 05 Jul 2012 11:09:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.125.70 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:08:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20120705082857.GB37083@server.rulingia.com> <4FF55864.8040807@FreeBSD.org> <201207051215.44799.j.mckeown@ru.ac.za> From: Eitan Adler Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:08:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: Chris Rees Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnfh6Mql9fkVenBmbtn1jMeOyxX4lfS5FUoJ2LurnOK344F4sZN7Q3HNWoaUfERilmj1Jjg Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Jonathan McKeown Subject: Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:09:07 -0000 On 5 July 2012 03:28, Chris Rees wrote: > On Jul 5, 2012 11:16 AM, "Jonathan McKeown" wrote: >> >> On Thursday 05 July 2012 11:03:32 Doug Barton wrote: >> > On 07/05/2012 01:28, Peter Jeremy wrote: >> > > On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown >> > > >> > > wrote: >> > >> As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate, >> > >> that's the sort of thinking that led to things like: >> > >> >> > >> alias dir=ls >> > > >> > > Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have #define BEGIN >> > > { #define END } wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol >> > > and Pascal. >> > >> > Um, this kind of elitist crap really isn't helpful. >> >> It was intended to be a slightly humorous response to your original > question: >> >> > why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to >> > install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system? >> >> rather than ``elitist crap'' (as was the deliberately the over-the-top >> comparison to Clippy). I don't think suggesting that someone who wants to > use >> a system learn how it works is elitist; and I don't object to optional > tools >> to help them ``settle in'' (but see below). >> >> You might also notice that I made a suggestion that might help people >> migrating - namely some adaptation of the Unix Rosetta Stone in the > Handbook >> so that people who know how to do something in Linux are quickly guided to >> the best way to do it in FreeBSD (and perhaps vice versa). >> >> > If the new feature gets created, and you don't want to use it, turn it >> > off. No problem. >> >> No. I think this is entirely the wrong way round. If the new feature is >> created and you want it, turn it on. Don't make me turn off something I >> didn't want in the first place. Given the choice between a system in > which I >> switch on whatever I need, versus one which has absolutely everything >> switched on where I spend ages switching it all off/deinstalling it all, I >> know which I prefer - and others have made similar comments. > > That's crazy- this is the logic that led to our sh having tab completion > and history disabled by default for years. How many people honestly knew > it was there? The people who would benefit from this feature are the ones > who wouldn't know it was there. The system should be optimized for new users by default. Whether this means enabling or disabling a feature is feature-specific. -- Eitan Adler