From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 20:21:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B4B16A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:21:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A331D43D48 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:21:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2934) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D19BY-0003UW-5p for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:20:40 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:21:24 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:21:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:21:18 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > The operating system and the environment make all the difference. ATMs > are usually PCs, but that doesn't mean that understanding PCs is > equivalent to understanding ATMs. That's part of my point. The differences between servers and clients (which includes desktops) are not so much in the hardware anymore, as in their *use*. An ATM may have a bunch of bins and rollers and cameras attached to it, but in the heart of it lies a PC. Heck, it might even literally be a PC complete with beige case. The latter isn't a joke. It may very will be cheaper for the ATM company to purchase generic prebuilt PCs than to design and fabricate their own board. > The distinction is not artificial; it's a critical and real distinction > that many people today just don't understand. > > I've worked on all these types of systems, and their differences are as > clear as black and white to me. What I am arguing is that those differences are going away. We no longer live in the 1980s (when I started using BSD UNIX). While today's server may have failsafe hotswap hardware, they are not inherently more powerful or speedier than the clients they serve. This is what I meant by "convergence". These differences are not as black and white to younger generations by virtue of the fact that they are no longer black and white. While MVS may be unsuitable for the desktop and OSX unsuitable for the mainframe, there's a huge middle ground that includes FreeBSD. > Many of the requirements of servers and clients are in direct conflict. > Desktops require a GUI, but GUI just gets in the way on a server. > Desktops must be inexpensive, but the reliability requirements of > servers cost money. Desktops must be user-friendly, but servers must be > secure. And so on. Why is there a conflict? Why can't desktops be secure? Why can't servers have usability? I will grant you that servers need failsafe hardware, but that's really a minor point. Speaking of GUIs, the mere existance of /usr/ports/x11/xorg-6.8.1 does not affect the performance or reliability of a FreeBSD server. Neither does actually installing it. Ditto for KDE and GNOME. The fact that I run KDE on my FreeBSD desktop in no way affects the performance or reliability of your server. You can have both. Heck, you already DO have both! The current desktops for X11 might not be perfect, and they might lack somewhat in the usability departments, but that is no argument to eliminate them. And as long as they exist, FreeBSD on the desktop is possible. The problems that FreeBSD on the desktop faces are not about the scheduler, or memory management, or resources, or anything like that. Instead it's mostly about getting new drivers for consumer hardware, and a little bit about smoothing out the installation and configuration workflow (which would benefit both sides). David