From owner-svn-src-head@freebsd.org Tue Jun 12 00:23:38 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: svn-src-head@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2BA1015996; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 00:23:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from devin@shxd.cx) Received: from shxd.cx (mail.shxd.cx [64.201.244.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C902F87728; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 00:23:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from devin@shxd.cx) Received: from [74.217.198.10] (port=39084 helo=[10.1.4.66]) by shxd.cx with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1fSO7L-000AwI-JB; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 14:48:23 +0000 From: Devin Teske Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: svn commit: r334939 - head/stand/lua Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 17:23:33 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Devin Teske , Kyle Evans , src-committers , svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org To: Warner Losh References: <201806110132.w5B1WI5d094546@repo.freebsd.org> <344AA709-2DF7-405C-AB4D-4F0978834EA1@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Sender: devin@shxd.cx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.26 X-BeenThere: svn-src-head@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: SVN commit messages for the src tree for head/-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 00:23:38 -0000 > On Jun 11, 2018, at 11:20 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Devin Teske > wrote: >=20 >> On Jun 11, 2018, at 7:07 AM, Warner Losh > wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Devin Teske > wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> > On Jun 10, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Kyle Evans > wrote: >> >=20 >> > Author: kevans >> > Date: Mon Jun 11 01:32:18 2018 >> > New Revision: 334939 >> > URL: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/changeset/base/334939 = >> >=20 >> > Log: >> > lualoader: Allow brand-*.lua for adding new brands >> >=20 >> > dteske@, I believe, had originally pointed out that lualoader = failed to >> > allow logo-*.lua for new logos to be added. When correcting this = mistake, I >> > failed to do the same for brands. >> >=20 >>=20 >> You=E2=80=99re doing an amazing job, Kyle. >>=20 >> I continually see nothing but genuine effort toward feature parity = which makes me think one day I can pass the reigns. >>=20 >> Yeah, I will always love Forth. It will always hold a special place = in my heart as that whacky language that simultaneously exudes great = power while also having the image ability to induce vomiting =F0=9F=A4=AE = by the uninitiated. >>=20 >> However, all that being said, I=E2=80=99d actually like to keep the = Ficl boot stuff as an option through to 14.0 and here is why ... >>=20 >> Last year we were looking to update from ficl3 to ficl4. That may not = sound too exciting to most folks, but most folks don=E2=80=99t know the = power that ficl4 brings =E2=80=94 like the capability to use full = networking in the loader! Can lua do that? How cool would it be to be = able to communicate with the network from the loader before the kernel = is even loaded into memory? I had a few hair-brained schemes left for = Forth which might be exciting, lol >>=20 >> The current boot loader can already communicate via NFS or TFTP = today. Adding http would be easy, https would be harder due to crypto = being huge and space being small (though bear ssl might be small = enough). >>=20 >> The last articulated plan in arch@ was that LUA will be default in = 12, and we plan to remove FORTH in 13. Last time I said it there in = February, there was only email agreeing that I could find. This matches = the in-person consensus poll I took at BSDcan as well. I think it would = take a very extraordinary set circumstance and severe problems with LUA = to change those plans. >>=20 >=20 > At BSD Can there was the boot working group where we discussed that an = FCP would be required to decide this. >=20 > In the working group you weren't listening and being rather combative = and demanding that I do stuff, I think that's an unfair characterization of the situation, but it = doesn't matter -- that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. > so I stopped talking. Hopefully we can _start_ talking. As the principled author of this work, = I want to have a say in its deprecation since I still maintain that body = of work. > It should not be taken as a sign of my consent, but more a sign of not = wanting to get into a yelling match in public on a topic I thought had = been settled months ago. >=20 Nobody asked *me* about how I would like to see *my* work removed from = the tree. I think I should have a say. I think I've been pretty darn helpful in the process by providing = substantive and helpful feedback to not only Kyle but also on the GSoC = project etc. I've not stood in any ones way. For being so helpful, I = would expect a level respect in this matter. > I raised my desires that I would like to be able to flip a knob in 13 = and reboot between Ficl and Lua, back and forth. >=20 > Give people a choice until we have done a "shake-out" through an = entire major version. >=20 > An honest-to-goodness procession would be, in my mind: >=20 > 13: Has both; both are installed. End-user can boot back and forth = between the two >=20 > Problems that arise in one or the other are non-critical because there = is always an "out" by running the other. >=20 > 14: Has both but both are not installed. The installer media doesn't = even have it. You can't install the Forth booth stuff unless you twist a = knob in buildworld, optionally going down the path of generating release = media which has the Forth boot stuff. >=20 > 15. It's removed from tree. You can't build Forth boot. Lua only. No = looking back, no way to build it with Forth, to get Ficl you need to go = to ports. A Ficl with FreeBSD boot words no longer exists and is no = longer maintained. All of bhyve userboot also therefore uses Lua. >=20 > That's way too long. 12 will have Lua by default, but you can build = FORTH if you want has been the plan since February when I socialized = this on arch@. I originally pitched coexistence, but there was little = appetite for that. >=20 > So I think a FCP discussed in arch@ is the right path forward. >=20 We sat on the GSoC for years. Why all of a sudden do we need to ship = this in less than 6 months? There are new features in Forth for 12 and they work and Lua has not = caught up to them (e.g., Boot Environments in the loader menu) and you = want to make Lua the default in 12? This doesn't make sense. The timeline I suggested is more amenable to actually crossing the = finish line with a fully-functional drop-in replacement. --=20 Devin=