From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 17 15:41:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD052DCAE4 for ; Sun, 17 May 2020 15:41:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Q5wj0YqPz4V5x for ; Sun, 17 May 2020 15:41:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from dalet420 ([174.0.43.39]) by shaw.ca with ESMTP id aLQ1jxubm62braLQ2j0DGx; Sun, 17 May 2020 09:41:39 -0600 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shaw.ca; s=s20180605; t=1589730099; bh=PP2S5IQMibt5RfJ4BhpGKfyNls6QlykTeRK5w59E2Yo=; h=From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date; b=Oa797lKblR9v13j9a4JMoxgEM1bRxYrFmktZ0ReSNFdHrV7RuxXb1XRos4UwniZX2 lZZ264mappz3d9yfT8OmJHaZWEuOAgJXrBBNUjx7ml+d+EhG6whSLEgAVu/jqOCjSk FfxEVCC3+OnjfM/PhZwcut/L9MM1E25k34QaK7NPDka03ZBSqVTAMZj4epHz9/go6H d/TnTyq8r7wJk35wLUSkc3hh3kyPZA/1yzz9mxs/YT75ahgVjLGVLE+ptqk8D/ek6U Qu6u754ZSDpWsHZ4ZZqKn5ar723MVdJ+mNwfRDL4XJllF0rymy4g3dPVTSjQVggK+D 5VyWEe2hU2Srw== X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=LKf9vKe9 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=TiBur8m8wieNAdBnNdHE5Q==:117 a=TiBur8m8wieNAdBnNdHE5Q==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=rbXGaCtEAAAA:8 a=4Scx3XHfAAAA:8 a=CujlH34wYZhfTyBoFm8A:9 a=P75nDzamf7z27g57:21 a=UQq5-c5KOV_bF0E5:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=p_4-6O5FIlP82heawbVc:22 a=YTBc-gzqii7jW2Yn59ho:22 From: "Dale Scott" To: "'John Howie'" , "'@lbutlr'" Cc: "'FreeBSD'" References: <20200217231452.717FA1E820@freefall.freebsd.org> <85E7C97E-EF8B-4FC7-8EF1-758B7BCBAE90@kreme.com> <05112EEC-7FA3-4E18-974B-263A58058E01@kicp.uchicago.edu> <332714B8-2798-42CF-A082-9EDA180CC65B@kreme.com> <20200516201923.8676289a.freebsd@edvax.de> <257EF587-92B5-4671-B6F4-89E86CC2ACA0@kreme.com> <12062767-7DF1-45FE-A464-C864F03CBDCF@thehowies.com>, <7BB197EB-5A5C-47D7-903A-BAE7E7F4D66F@thehowies.com> In-Reply-To: <7BB197EB-5A5C-47D7-903A-BAE7E7F4D66F@thehowies.com> Subject: RE: [FreeBSD-Announce] FreeBSD 12.0 end-of-life Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 09:41:37 -0600 Message-ID: <000901d62c61$a7b9cd70$f72d6850$@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQEj58C0dx16mzp5XS7mymgNukAzQgI9rie6AXLEe/sCBfEkWgJzXq2vATtPuIcBz7x0nQIw+gNrAc1Zp/4CBwvGR6mHIQ7w Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfKay/oRfkuRr4Ghaalt83zbL+f2qvLRWwz6fPla7qc6d3NOehFbRRBjIqdkcWgFvflMUdE37Vr4AP9hhIwX8K0Hexns2XZOonSOXtt6LuiVlYri6J1vz WjUjh3z4QIeSdnP2QK99ZmxyQu/srD6lA5cUKUJfOnMr614u2n8sopMrbuS2Rm5zDbG5k5Vhr6tsatdCAJo6iOgQO7mz2QNIgVIBDt8CxzDP5vkb5hICblAG X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Q5wj0YqPz4V5x X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=shaw.ca header.s=s20180605 header.b=Oa797lKb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=shaw.ca; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dalescott@shaw.ca designates 64.59.134.12 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dalescott@shaw.ca X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.88 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[shaw.ca:s=s20180605]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.0.43.39:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[64.59.134.12:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.59.134.0/25]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[shaw.ca:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[shaw.ca:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[shaw.ca,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.78)[-0.778]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.59.134.12:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 15:41:42 -0000 > As for =E2=80=9Cperfection is the enemy of good=E2=80=9D, please tell = me you will willingly step into a 737-MAX with its > original s/w because it is =E2=80=9Cgood enough=E2=80=9D. There are = plenty of real world examples where perfection > should be mandatory, and good is not enough. Fully agree in principle, although I would say "we" have learned just = demanding perfection (and testing for) is not practical, and instead = demand proof of _striving_ for perfection (i.e. safety regulated = industries and risk-based compliance requirements). > I may be wrong, but I get the feeling I have been in the software = industry longer than you, and maybe it is just m > age talking, but we are arrogant in thinking that we can get away with = Minimum Viable Product, and (shudder) > =E2=80=9Cfail forward=E2=80=9D Agile methodology.=20 Well said! I hope you don't mind if you hear me use your example. :-)=20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org = [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of John Howie Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 2:49 AM To: @lbutlr Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: [FreeBSD-Announce] FreeBSD 12.0 end-of-life Respectfully, you missed my points, and your counterpoints are the = regular industry talking points for why we cannot solve the problem.=20 As for =E2=80=9Cperfection is the enemy of good=E2=80=9D, please tell me = you will willingly step into a 737-MAX with its original s/w because it = is =E2=80=9Cgood enough=E2=80=9D. There are plenty of real world = examples where perfection should be mandatory, and good is not enough. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling I have been in the software = industry longer than you, and maybe it is just my age talking, but we = are arrogant in thinking that we can get away with Minimum Viable = Product, and (shudder) =E2=80=9Cfail forward=E2=80=9D Agile methodology. = Maybe, just maybe, we should take a step back and reconsider what we are = trying to achieve. John Sent from my iPhone > On May 16, 2020, at 23:25, @lbutlr wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 16 May 2020, at 13:12, John Howie = wrote: >> Respectfully, the views presented are not in line with desired state. >=20 > It is in line with reality. >=20 >> We *should* be able to install s/w and forget it until the hardware = eventually fails. >=20 > If the software is hardened and unmodifiable and there is no possible = way for it be exploited, sure. But that is pretty much a fantasy for any = complicated software like an OS. >=20 >> We are building a house of cards with tiered dependencies and = upgrades are often fatal, resulting in prolonged outages. This leads = administrators to just leave systems be. That represents significant = risk. >>=20 >> We need to build better software, and that starts with simplicity. We = need to stop putting everything, including the kitchen sink, into = releases. We need to focus on code quality. Where we absolutely must = update a system we should, by now, be able to hot patch it. The fact = that as an industry we cannot is scandalous. We need to support = distributions for many, many years.=20 >=20 > Software needs to balance between doing what is needed (which means. = Keeping up with new technology, new use cases, new media types, etc) and = being stable and secure. >=20 > If you insist that every thing be perfect from the start, you have = nothing. Because perfect is the enemy of good. >=20 >> These are not FreeBSD-specific issues, but these are golden = opportunities for FreeBSD to stand out from the crowd by releasing = minimalist distributions, with high-quality software that is supported = for many years, and includes the ability to hot patch vulnerable code. >=20 > You make something that has so far proved to be basically impossible = sound super simple. If the software can be =E2=80=98hot fixed=E2=80=99 = then the software can be modified. If it can be modified, then it must = be secure. If it must be secure, you need to be able to fix bugs in the = security and fix new-found exploits and move to newer security models. >=20 > There is a reason we no longer use SSL, and that is a good thing. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > 'Yeah, well, I didn't sign up for world domination,' said Medium > Dave. 'That sort of thing gets you into trouble.' = =E2=80=94Hogfather >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list=20 > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list = https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"