From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 29 00:10:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE11116A407 for ; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:10:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tim1timau@yahoo.com) Received: from web50302.mail.yahoo.com (web50302.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B42043C9F for ; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:10:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tim1timau@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 78724 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Nov 2006 00:10:25 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=sp4D5gIFkcUv1VMdj5A8ywnyBPkMMTtqpc5ucz+DK/TWTB+M/UxpL7m73PAeVlKkC+xcUZ1VKIwp75MDfN5NleCh/i1uA9B2JpfWzcnXCeajYbVXNEjBkO6IU7Dxem8D5ZZRmKUkCmph/U9UhJsLEGrLN9QmQPapKv8l9y9DdjQ=; X-YMail-OSG: YsqU7Q4VM1kykOMT1XKKpswNrjYIIuy1O_JmWDtychDGEIx4e5dmvcAL8N5pLgvMwH8.Z9LsKRQUGeI6ntOpqMI0crraETiP9a6OrA3SGTs_mg14zQD5aQFBgRlQ25_LGVt8wVAC4_bY1cBwPmyG7hpuGXo8k8DE9Q-- Received: from [210.0.100.149] by web50302.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:10:25 PST Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:10:25 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Clewlow To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, jan.husar@skosi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <197873.77889.qm@web50302.mail.yahoo.com> Cc: Subject: Re: BSD folks position on GPL, Novell, IBM, SCO, and MS... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:10:27 -0000 --- Mike Hauber wrote: > From: Mike Hauber > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, > jan.husar@skosi.org > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:13:10 -0500 > CC: > Subject: Re: BSD folks position on GPL, Novell, IBM, SCO, and MS... > > On Tuesday 28 November 2006 15:21, Jan Husar proclaimed: > > On 11/28/06, Mike Hauber wrote: > > > On Tuesday 28 November 2006 07:08, Jan Husar proclaimed: > > > > On 11/28/06, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > > > > > Mike Hauber writes: > > > > > > I was just wondering what the general consensus was on the GPL, > > > > > > Linux in general, SCOs lawsuit, Sun's open sourcing, IBMs > > > > > > contributions to Linux, Novell's contributions, Novell's deal with > > > > > > MS and how this really affects SuSe (there's a lot of hype on that > > > > > > and I literally don't know what to believe at this point). > > > > > > > > > > Why should we care? > > > > > > > > > > The SCO lawsuits are doubly irrelevant: firstly because SCO is not > > > > > going to win, secondly because BSD is immune by virtue of the 1994 > > > > > settlement with USL. > > > > > > I don't think the USL settlement matters to SCO. After all, Linux is > > > immune by virtue of the GPL (in addition to SCOs claims being > > > fraudulent), but that didn't stop SCO from making fools of themselves. > > > It's not Darl and company specifically that I'm worried about. It's > > > other companies that can come along and pull the same stunts. How long > > > would it take before prospective customers get weary of the idea of open > > > source as a whole if litigation claims (fraudulent as they may be) > > > continue? > > > > Well, GPL v2 isn't the security as it was before, when you counts > > software patents. > > That's why there is this "extremic" proposal for gpl version3, or > > better say some people found it extremic. If you look at US there is > > lot of extremic stuff going around, e.g. > > new companies (patent trolls) which have only reason to exist to > > create patents and sue everybody. > > > > > > > As for the Novell-MS deal, I don't see how it affects BSD at all. > > > > > > > > You are right, there is no direct affect on BSD however software > > > > patents is in issue no matter if it's GPL or BSD mostly in United > > > > States, in EU we are still fighting the patent problematics. > > > > > > > > Today is voting in ITRE (Information, Technology, Research and Energy) > > > > committee within European Parliament about IPRED (Intelectual Property > > > > Rights Enforcment Directive) which basicly means, criminalization of > > > > abusing of patents, trademarks and copyright (e.g. sentece to jail, > > > > freeze of accounts and so on) > > > > > > This was pretty much my concern as far as OSS goes. If SCO actually > > > succeeded with their claims (which I know they won't), or if other SCOs > > > come along, I don't think the only target would be the GPL. I see patent > > > issues becoming a real problem not just for the GPL side of things but > > > the BSDs as well (my stance, of course, is that it shouldn't because > > > patents lately have been blindly awarded and seemingly requested for the > > > purpose of fraudulent lawsuits). If companies are scrambling for patents > > > in order to bring litigation or to protect themselves from litigation via > > > counter-suits, I doubt that when the fingers start pointing, the GPLd or > > > BSDd code would be excluded... In fact, I tend to think they would be a > > > preferred target just because it's open source, and we are by far the > > > biggest threat that proprietary companies have. > > > > Patents is problem for propietary, non-propietary, freeware or > > opensource e.g. all the software out there. > > > > > I see this basically as a threat to everyone, not just the few it's > > > starting out with. That's why I asked, and I hadn't really heard much at > > > all from the BSD side of the aisle. > > > > Yes, the BSD community is kinda quiet also in Europe, I found that > > really negative. > > > > > What if Sun pulls a SCO with their Java? If IBM pulls a SCO with their > > > contributions? If Novell pulls a SCO with their contributions? I would > > > like to think that their intentions are honest, but after SCO, and then > > > MSs very weird deal with Novell, who knows? (and by the way, is IBM > > > working with the BSD community as well? I hadn't read anything on that, > > > and would be interested to know more if they are). > > > > This is just a speculation and really lame one ;/ > > > > > Although my preference is the BSD license, I'm very much a fan of OSS, > > > whether it be licensed under the BSD or GPL, and I'm just concerned about > > > whether or not this could escalate into a trend against OS code in > > > general. > > > > > > Appreciate your inputs. Thanks, > > > > > > Mike > > > > Current situation of the patents in EU or better say in Europe. > > > > 2005 - European Parliament rejected computer impemented invetitions > > directive (which means for 4 years the same or similliar directive > > can't come to vote) > > 2006 - European Parliament adopted a new directive EPLA (European > > Patent Litigation Agreement), which basicly means EPO (European Patent > > Office, which is outisde the democratic control of EU) will have their > > own courts and judges for the patent problematics and nobody can't > > tell them what to do, even if the EP (European Parliament) rejected > > CII (Computer Implemented Invetitions) > > 2006 - IPRED2, criminalization of patent, trademark and copyright abuse > > 2007 - Community Patent, backdoor for software patents and other nasty > > stuff (such as dna, nano, drug, research patents and so on) > > > > > > As you can see there are lot of problems around adopting patent > > "protection", right now the situation is bad, but can be worse. EPO is > > granting software patents even if they aren't aplicable in Europe, > > after EPLA will come to it's function or Community Patent based on > > London/Munich patent agreement we will have really similliar situation > > like the United States have now. > > > > Hows the patent problematics and law is in United states I have just > > conclusion and information from news paper. Is there someone dealing > > with it in US? > > > > Jan > > Whoa. You seem to be far more legally inclined than I, so I'm not even going > > to pretend to know anything specific as far as what actions are being taken > by .gov here in the States. However, I do know that there are patents > popping up that the OSS communites are growing more and more concerned about. > > One example: (link may wrap): > > http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,140,028.PN.&OS=PN/7,140,028&RS=PN/7,140,028 > > I provide the link, but I couldn't tell you much about the language of the > patent itself, except to reiterate whats already been said. This is a patent > > for compiling code to run on different operating systems... If that really > is the case, then I don't think that it's just the GCC at risk. > > There should be laws about claiming things like this. There is nothing > unique > about it, and most developers kits have something at least too similar for MS > > to say, "This is our idea, and we would like to protect it." If it's unique > to them, then fine. But if it's something that has been used by most > developers out there, it available to the public to use at will, it's methods > > are commonly known, then the patent in no way, shape, or form should be > issued. In fact, I believe that companies who do this should have to pay > fines for even attempting it. > > Mike Microsoft appear to be claiming that the idea of using one type of computer to build an operating system for a different type of computer is their idea. Unfortunately (for Microsoft) this practice has been known in the "public domain" for decades. This claim would be laughable if it wasnt serious - instead it is just pathetic. Tim. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com