From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 24 21:17:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1A5116A4DD for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:17:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ph@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08B243D7C for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:17:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd.ph@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m2so2561967uge for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 14:17:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=gZYfrky53xLm4wi6xR7cr3yBJg1VXKdgkfjv5suqUZoek8wA8+3Yvx3W4gBva9D8ptDVTDoXGCcTHA96H/N30+xR78Wy2caAllK9a9fF8y5IDqtYXtj47XxyhjQatbL0z1fevprL7Z6geL6LB+rD8isI3YOSQzdNlPJNzoo6Z0U= Received: by 10.78.166.7 with SMTP id o7mr1987981hue; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 14:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.141.18 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 14:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:17:04 +0800 From: "jan gestre" To: "Greg Barniskis" In-Reply-To: <44C51886.6040207@scls.lib.wi.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060713181058.56349.qmail@web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002101c6af09$aacf32f0$3c01a8c0@coolf89ea26645> <44C51886.6040207@scls.lib.wi.us> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 01:00:12 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: jerrymc@clunix.cl.msu.edu, danial_thom@yahoo.com, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt , Nick Withers Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:17:16 -0000 On 7/25/06, Greg Barniskis wrote: > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Danial Thom" > > To: "Greg Barniskis" ; "Nick Withers" > > > > Cc: ; ; > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:10 AM > > Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? > > > > > >> Burying your head in the sand is a common method > >> used by stupid people that have no answer to the > >> truth. I don't blame you; you guys don't want > >> your employers to know that you've wasted man > >> 1000s of their dollars because you don't know the > >> performance characteristics of the hardware > >> you've recommended. It must be thoroughly > >> embarrassing. > [snip] > > > I do agree with Danial that most USERS on this list are > > burying their heads in the sand on this issue. But I will > > point out that there isn't really any reason they shouldn't > > be. What the market wants is features, not speed. And > > that is what the FreeBSD developers are working on. > > Features over speed is generally the right equation, yes. > > But I think you're being too generous to Danial. The quote of his > above was in direct response to my assertion that many people refuse > to listen to him because he frequently engages in cheap demagogy[1]. > > His response? Another whole boatload of cheap demagogy, questioning > the intelligence, aptitude and moral character of anyone who doesn't > listen to him, by way of accusations that are wholly unsupported by > facts. I could probably rest my case right there, but I think his > perception (and yours) that people are not receptive to claims of > FreeBSD performance problems is quite simply false. > > Every time a performance question is brought up, I see a flurry of > calls for clarification and for the formulation of repeatable tests > which are generally agreed to be an accurate gauge of the problem. > People with performance problems then /sometimes/ get upset (I think > because the questioning and testing tends to assume they're wrong > and they get defensive about it). > > The problem is, scientific testing of an assertion must try to prove > the hypothesis is false, and must posit (and also try to disprove) > any plausible alternative explanations. There's just no reason to > get upset about that. Raising questions about a claim, and trying to > explain an outcome's root cause by alternative hypotheses, is in > fact the /required behavior/ of critical thinkers. > > When the OP of a performance problem does follow through with > testing, and is willing to engage civilly in a logical debate, then > generally there is a successful outcome to the thread. When the OP > of a problem gets emotional about it and starts spouting cheap > demagogy, then other users and developers quickly will walk away > from the table. > > Walking away from trollery is in no way equivalent to these users > and developers sticking their heads in the sand on the issue. It's > the predictable response of critical thinkers who recognize demagogy > as a tool of /antitruth/. Those who consistently use demagogy are > always more interested in winning an argument than in finding the > truth, and any critical thinker either sees right through the murk > of BS being tossed at them or least has enough intuitive sense to > recoil from it. > > And that is /the only reason/ why people ignore Danial. His brand of > cheap demagogy is so potent that the smell of /antitruth/ emanates > from his posts in a field so strong that it might as well be a > physically repelling force. He might do better in politics or > religion where these trollish "debating" tactics are the norm. But > in a community of critical thinkers, the "truthiness" of demagogy > will rarely find any traction at all. > > > i thought the consensus was stop feeding the troll? so why is thread still > alive :D >