From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jan 27 19:40:49 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA0A14BA746 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2019 19:40:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AD9A81535 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2019 19:40:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.193.226.69]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MrPRB-1hZ2mf1Rot-00oYYw; Sun, 27 Jan 2019 20:35:26 +0100 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 20:35:25 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wireless interface Message-Id: <20190127203525.0d7cf203.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:+XUEXB66y7kMzhNfQtOrBBBADSFa6PQDGUt6eJhVVV7wJxsSu6K BK0xpxm/B4KiD4d3dSiKqINnx2KCStj2G3RdjRCAeFJpY+bCwsnWoBj5jlJYh0l+mwEiGOa 6NdvZy9FhMEQRgBERFYVf4blP5DfOaWq05PlBCdVI1ReuNz6rSr+zqn8CnIjY4TiBbKoe6U L/QfUbskTbwchoN0WboKA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:qIhD4iKuuYs=:Zq7AH3+J10/JBBG2ot9yNO 46L9cc8mysOgivA6dnXpMmZzXDi/qsSSMkM8zgPmHxMZF2+86tpz6e1+vJoh5iy6Qy3lQvAu5 Kj6YGfKUhkDu5W/VcY6PgTCmCSCUvktUYEpayLvvge669lT1Z4pHgw+HMBFndw88zco7+BU9W tQ+aGXNIdnr0miQalgN1OeYQqrvfWOvgbMrinur8RorOCu8UVD4RxHLaPKRvdMq7q6R7seRnh 97W3kSq1KL5RbVgQ0+vXqf1eD2XLAx+hALUx3QM6EWjaWdUx6eJ4W8RsJA6djrWezgCsfzPtA Bfhrsx1c106OMMakiYG0F9+RaSrLZs5diqcgfvfR/sQdxXpS9y4to9m8EESdICfbB6ZvLaUIE PtTIlvMF71YsYKkJEIV35QBEiogKG4Tl1B5uX7P6PJe6v3K0YFnrrRL6Wy8wEVKHixbioW48B QjAqvcnIqE9kFlkm+JrN6OL3Hd6RRfcggwkJUFQRZC03RmgFbzBb5m9EyOA63/w4WHQnSlyAR B4pQqNV8oiG6ogqv9JZR3/4GpRNyTFL9fhSAO71glxmuWWyboz1V3syMOim8aGMm82VzwQDZO hvltaBtd8HomY5lfa9iaNrBhcjXPzj7qsuI3jUS5jt8SmNdHH2vBLBfUl+OeVkgwcXfgzBOQ1 jNZk1D2ibCOjH6SAozIEXPayz1I2dcAjIRS4jKjGZEUGNAdSmgYte/197qCna9yA3/M3VshsZ bCP8N6bD5MMjgeMsyN7Tk49EdTNNa9KR9sdhn42m9YjJe/sa91tD3ashKRA= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 5AD9A81535 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.65 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: mx01.schlund.de]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[69.226.193.92.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.10]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.97)[0.968,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.95)[0.954,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.992,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[73.192.72.217.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.34)[ipnet: 217.72.192.0/20(-0.46), asn: 8560(2.17), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 19:40:49 -0000 On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 13:23:22 -0600, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 1/26/19 12:50 PM, Carmel NY wrote: > > On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:54:05 -0600, Rob Belics stated: > > > >>> It is situations like this that make me love > >>> Microsoft. Connecting a wireless network should not require user > >>> intervention other than choosing the network and entering the > >>> password. > >> > >> FreeBSD is not a consumer operating system. It's not designed to hand > >> hold anyone. That is why Windows is such a huge monstrosity of an > >> install. > > > > I just finished a fresh install of Windows 10. If you take the time > > involved in installing a basic MS Windows system vs. a basic FreeBSD > > system, Windows will usually win. A big plus is that Windows actually > > can get a wireless system up and running by itself, sans perhaps > > supplying the password. Does FreeBSD even support using the WPS Button > > on the Wi-Fi Router? Plus, you then have to install a GUI. Now, if you > > want to compare a FreeBSD system sans GUI, you have to compare it > > against a MS Server, not the regular Windows version design for home or > > office users. > > > > This is not about "hand-holding"; it is about bring the OS into the > > modern age. My machine is supposed to be my slave, not the other way > > around. > > Just a small comment on neither side, hopefully. > > As one clever man said, you will pay, one way or another. With MS > Windows system you will pay money for using it. You will also pay money > for using 3rd party software - antivirus. MS is the only system vendor I > know of who explicitly tells you it is not safe to use their system > without 3rd party software (antivirus). This is interesting. Established security research has shown and proven (!) that especially virus software (it's hard to call them "antivirus" today) is in fact increasing the attack surface of a "Windows" system. Common suggestions are to stay with the software provided by "Windows" itself and _not_ install additional and interfering virus software - or has this changed again? So or so, you pay with time and/or money. Buying virus software seems to be futile, as the one you already paid for (as it comes with "Windows") isn't any worse or better than what you can add by investing additional money. > With FreeBSD you will pay with your time. You will need some effort > requiring some learning to install system, software, and make all work. You will also need to invest time into learning "Windows", either if you haven't been exposed to it before, or because you need to unlearn what you knew from previous "Windows" vesions (things that are very different now) or from different GUI-based systems (such as Linux with an IDE). > You will need some effort to plan ahead before purchasing your machine > to avid really ugly hardware (Broadcom BCM43xx is example of really ugly > one, search about its design; something like 32 bit chip on 64 bit bus > may ring the bell; - to the contrary to their great ethernet chips). But > once you have everything working, FreeBSD is great, not bloated as > majority Linuxes became recently. Additionally, you can achieve to get a system that will run reliably for a long time, one that is "good for a long time", instead of something that claims to be "the best at the moment" / "state of the art" which will be out of support after a year or so - and no further way to keep i running because a 3rd party "update server" has been shut down, or software problems won't be fixed because there's already a newer system available which you will be urged to purchase. System updates are very important. That's why taking system control out of the hands of the end users, as "Windows" does it, isn't entirely bad. Forced updates make sure that Internet-connected systems don't stay unpatched for years, running spam mail servers or botnets. Sure, it's not a PC, a _personal_ computer anymore, as someone else is in control, but people don't want to be in control, so this is a win-win for everyone. Corporate "Windows" installations are quite different, as they allow administrative access to how and when updates will be rolled out to the individual computers. There are guidelines, policies, and customs that say things like "We don't do the updates, we will test them first, _then_ roll them out", or "We don't do any updates at all, because if we'd do them, our software would break". This might be a reason why so many botnets actually appear on large business installations. ;-) > One more alternative: Linux, and if you have chunks of hardware that > need proprietary (binary only, etc) drives ("microcode", "firmware"), > great choice would be Ubuntu, which is clone of Debian (the last is > great Linux distro staying away from proprietary stuff). With Linux > (read: Ubunty), you virtually don't need to invest your time, all will > work pretty much out of the box, and you will have less bloated, and > definitely more secure system than MS Windows, ("fatter" than FreeBSD > would be though). Definitely true. Today Linux is the operating system (family) that has the best hardware support, i. e., the one that supports the most hardware components. Not even "Windows" can do that. Sure, especially with the most recent hardware where only closed source drivers are available for "Windows", this is a problem, but Linux quickly catches up, and you can soon use current technology, easier than with "Windows", and longer (!) than with "Windows" (see my example of working printers being not supported anymore). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...