From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 08:33:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19424 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA19413 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA22567; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:31:23 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma022563; Fri Jul 12 15:30:54 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA07385; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:30:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:30:54 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199607121530.IAA07385@meerkat.mole.org> To: mrm@mole.Mole.ORG, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, sextonr.crestvie@squared.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > I think we all ultimately want the all-singing, all-dancing loadable > > > kernel modules with PnP detection and auto config of devices while > > > simultaneously selecting proper drivers for compatible hardware while > > > working around all known incompatibilites. > > > > Not all of us do. At least one of us wants a really fast, really reliable > > system that makes extremely efficient use of its hardware environment. I > > suspect that that's not quite compatible with all-singing, all-dancing. > > Maybe, but I'm sceptical. ^ my spelling for one thing :-) > > What in particular are you skeptical about? Maybe I can allay some > of your fears... > I've never yet seen an operating system de-bloat. I've never yet seen more complicated more maintainable than less complicated. I've never yet seen "I'll have this examine the hardware and determine _exactly_ what it is and what the user _intends_ to be done with it" work correctly all the time. I keep waiting for DWIM, but I'm not holding my breath. I tend to like an approach that involves: 1) a 1-page install document, the first sentence of which directs the installer to a reference to be read and understood if he doesn't understand the 1-page install document, I don't mean just a Xerox(tm) copy of a directory listing with the octal code for the bootstrap hand written on the side, but a reasonable "Do this in this order" document, 2) one diskette/tape/cd/papertape to get the system in absolute minimum form to disk, doing what the installer asks the installation to do, using command lines if necessary, and restartable without having to go through the whole thing from the beginning if a mistake is made, and, 3) once the barebones system is on disk, configure and load away, but don't do it from that annoyingly slow diskette. That diskette, that, if I screw up because I'm a doofus, I may have to recreate more than once. If used properly, vi is a reasonable configuration tool. Yeah, I'm thinking about putting together an installation that does this. Not too hard, but thinking about it. What stops me is that I think that a plethora (check my spelling again) of intallations a la Slackware, Red Hat, Debian, ..., probably do more harm than good. I think the Free/Net/Open split was lamentable. This also means I'm not fond of "Now would be a great time to register your product." in flashing boxes on the screen with images of Lake Washington drifting ever-so-gently in the background, or "Here's a hint since you didn't read the documentation." popping up every few moments. I'd sometimes just like it to be KISS. I watch DG and JD make a really slick VM, but I wonder if it's too complicated to really rid of bugs, and I wonder if only 3 people understanding it (and maybe not all of it at once) is good, and I watch -stable sup have the install procedure updated every night, and I wonder about less being better than more. I appreciate (emphasize greatly appreciate) the work that those referenced directly and indirectly above have done. I just wonder. I hope the folks working on it are having fun, heaven knows they aren't paid enough or given enough credit for their work. I had a 386bsd0.1.2 system up for 450 days running X. I'd'a kept it but the new features so outweigh the old that I switched. I'm glad I did, but I still wish for simplicity. It wasn't too specific in explaining fears, sorry. I'm going to go and take my medication now. Regards, Mike -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good