From nobody Thu Sep 5 20:16:45 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4X09cp2Grxz5Tq7x for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2024 20:16:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4X09cp0Tfbz4jbp for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2024 20:16:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2d87196ec9fso906040a91.1 for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2024 13:16:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1725567417; x=1726172217; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=nUFLiuJWjnfZLIxUhTAqDPAko5nOj9B0cIZ1H/3ZdxY=; b=SKbGESKjkANlSLy6m15/g7zgdQv4Ogd3Sl4I8OpUNifpjLo8ZE78y05M/PXvZJ4c99 idrS19pOn8sJMC22O27VkXGz3TXs0p22sO/utwwNo2Uq80bbcj/ZSqJC1K0htK3Ab3mv xLO8roR/a4QDQJw4fXbJ9GRHy9jY0mOBICD078xSOryzWkN0DZ4hf+54pDzZa4uQlW+z ZQpa2d9UJ7m0tRNnwRN7QRB1jBq3QiVy+xigp11QuavMqGKE120whghz+QDANi6ezlU+ uWB59sOHAeHVrO84/4HJj1N45m5ukm7AxKsNEud3sVx13cr3XQ2IKYChRnb0L6Q1jgex HBtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1725567417; x=1726172217; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=nUFLiuJWjnfZLIxUhTAqDPAko5nOj9B0cIZ1H/3ZdxY=; b=UH3JcyKflr+w976HP5bAvBUH83jbWoFuNL+LuFuYX67rEJPF212wBVVkSiNyFgeh9C s6qR3PBjP0DZSLn+E7Iw58Yj9FLUCj+1u193LrFuJHcQPJ1C79gK/iiQzLlfDJxXeuZS t8tnlmK8+eJK2AdVl91XKOqDxgkGFE8JQhLpzmDfe048guvwcTpXpquvK6s12JKO/t1T wRkOoSPlH4MOSC8+tQeEZgqGWFkQpuINFUYk4Y4noOLjW6cbv6dulG6XFSJDEWCJCyui ppc/OniNLFmsB5je44i0nE6Z4Uz/BYpDekNAtHK6ISp4lw6YRWbK+A3UMOtOD5BXIC3R FM+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyD1xP2/Zfze/K8bb/LJz3nLas2WgkX6KgdIDwXoF42h0EVXvFD 3cbecurer96MlmymmWzh1Mleli4fapRi7g/sYApDxEAo8ox/q1F57pZ2rzfpJaW9EfyTWU15s75 jFBlh1GOwDMO/E0w1FbxruPVntLTvL7nScBZSC5LR4G+HJwxL X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGGNWhvh2z9Ua46q+ra7qW4Guz1XukS3pzK29Y6JqOiQYbefV9jFaa0UizKUCsUM/7Lynyj/uz9VhBjBoei/DE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3e8a:b0:2cf:c9ab:e747 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2dad4de4d19mr655365a91.1.1725567416518; Thu, 05 Sep 2024 13:16:56 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2024 14:16:45 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in any system) To: Alan Somers Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5e46d062164f8cc" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4X09cp0Tfbz4jbp --000000000000e5e46d062164f8cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 5, 2024 at 12:10=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers w= rote: > By now I expect that most of you have seen the long list of new > security advisories that just came out. Strikingly, all were the > result of memory handling errors. And none of them wouldn't have > happened if their respective programs had been written in a > memory-safe language. > FreeBSD represents hundreds of thousands or millions of man hours in its current form (depending on how you measure it). It has evolved over 30 years. To get to the same level of maturity in a rust rewrite would take a similar amount of time. But even if it took an order of magnitude less because rust is that much better, that represents a huge pool of manpower that don't seem to be hanging out around the project just waiting for something to do. Where do the resources for this come from? Without enough resources, the rewrites will be crap and nobody will want to use them (or maybe even FreeBSD). The rewrites to date have lost functionality (though maybe not functionality that's important) relative to what they replace. So great, we should switch to rust. But so far we have no way to do that incrementally (other than a parallel build system, which isn't very FreeBSDish). And if we can't even find the resources to do that minimal level of work, how can the rest possibly be robustly undertaken? Warner --000000000000e5e46d062164f8cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


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On Thu, Sep 5, 2024 at 12:10=E2=80=AF= PM Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.o= rg> wrote: