From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 24 01:35:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B71B716A41F for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:35:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from karl@FS.denninger.net) Received: from FS.denninger.net (wsip-68-15-213-52.at.at.cox.net [68.15.213.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3995B43D45 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:35:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from karl@FS.denninger.net) Received: from fs.denninger.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by FS.denninger.net (8.13.3/8.13.1) with SMTP id j6O1ZAK4016438 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:35:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from karl@FS.denninger.net) Received: from fs.denninger.net [127.0.0.1] by Spamblock-sys (LOCAL); Sat Jul 23 20:35:10 2005 Received: (from karl@localhost) by FS.denninger.net (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id j6O1ZAUV016436 for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:35:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from karl) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:35:10 -0500 From: Karl Denninger To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050724013510.GA15954@FS.denninger.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org References: <20050721202234.GA62615@FS.denninger.net> <20050722004340.H16902@fledge.watson.org> <20050722001253.GA70277@FS.denninger.net> <20050722013605.U16902@fledge.watson.org> <20050722010611.GA72234@FS.denninger.net> <42E0F93E.7000108@commit.it> <20050722194009.GA95692@FS.denninger.net> <20050722195357.GB95692@FS.denninger.net> <20050723025300.GY24353@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <20050723204434.B61837@fledge.watson.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050723204434.B61837@fledge.watson.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: Karl's Sushi and Packet Smashers X-Die-Spammers: Spammers cheerfully broiled for supper and served with ketchup! Subject: Re: make -j as a stress test (was: Re: Quality of FreeBSD) [WARNING - 6.0-BETA1 still hosed!] X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:35:12 -0000 On Sat, Jul 23, 2005 at 08:53:02PM +0100, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Danny Howard wrote: > > >While I agree with Karl that introducing instability is a very bad > >thing, I guess we now have an answer to Karl's vexation yesterday: [ > >http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2005-July/017210.html > >] > > > > "What I don't understand Robert is why Soren's code is "too > > sensitive" to commit, but the explosive reduction in stability > > that the changes made between 4.x and 5.3 caused weren't > > enough to back THAT out until it could be fixed." > > > >The answer would seem to be that when someone actually does test the > >untested code, it is even worse than the code we are already upset with. > >:) > > I think part of the confusion here has to do with the nature of "tested > code". Hardware device drivers can be highly tested, but fail to work on > specific hardware that isn't in the hands of the people developing or > testing with. The 6.x code is presumably running on tens of thousands if > not hundreds of thousands of machines quite successfully under very high > load, running this same code. So far, since people having problems with > the 5.x code were reminded of the patches, we've seen one post of "this > works much better!" and one post of "this is even worse!", which should > make clear the challenges involved, and how important it is that as many > people as possible help in the testing process. And that it doesn't take > a whole lot of work to provide at least a little help in the testing -- > Karl was able to uncover a problem by simply booting the installed > system, which was presumably an investment of less then twenty minutes of > his time. I'm sure Soren would love a donation of some nice new server > hardware if you happen to have it to spare, but getting involved in > testing code is the next best thing :-). > > Robert N M Watson No, Karl's investment involved a complete rebuild of his sandbox machine, a pullover of the hardware, and about eight hours of clock time for the resync to take place. My actual KEYBOARD time may have been 20 minutes or so, but the elapsed development time lost was approximately one full day. Also, the point here is that this isn't exactly esoteric hardware. It is bland stock-grade equipment from DIFFERENT manufacturers - its not even confined to one particular brand! Specifically, show me a PCI SATA card that DOES NOT use the SII chipset. Good luck, unless you're talking about $500+ embedded-RAID devices which decouple the disk chipset with some kind of internal on-card processor. Adaptec and Bustek, the two "brands" that everyone knows, both use the same chipset (which exhibits the problem) as do a whole crapload of no-name asian clone cards (which I presume ALSO show the same issue, but I'm not about to buy six different asian clones of the Adaptec and Bustek cards to try to find out - I already bought TWO different vendor's products, and both fail identically.) The disks which cause this problem are also from two DIFFERENT manufacturers - Maxtor and Hitachi. I bought the Hitachi drives after the original problem was reported and the developers said, basically, "Maxtor Sucks, but Hitachi is far better." Ok, if Maxtor sucks and Hitachi is far better, how come they BOTH have the same problem? Hmmmm... maybe neither Maxtor or Hitachi suck, and the CODE is bad eh? Most telling, the SAME DISK attached to the motherboard Intel ICH adapter DOES NOT have problems. My production machine happily grinds along with two SATA drives on the ICH motherboard SATA adapter - but as soon as I stick a THIRD disk on via the PCI bus on that card and do a "make buildworld" (on 5.4), BOOM! Pretty clearly, this is not a disk problem - it is some kind of (timing?) issue with the SII chipset on the PCI bus and FreeBSD's support for it. PR being filed now. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do! http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING! http://homecuda.com Emerald Coast: Buy / sell homes, cars, boats! http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind