From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 3 23:10:19 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C09143AB6E for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 23:10:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 220476E05E; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 23:10:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id fC7tgVw6pnBo4fC7ugjB3K; Thu, 03 Jan 2019 16:10:10 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J8fUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=heTAvR70AAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=LBi_h4Cvtbnk1Ul9H7UA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=UJ0tAi3fqDAA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=UrJ2pwYPfabwj1STkZPu:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB3BF13B; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 15:10:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x03NA83V099061; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 15:10:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x03NA8W2099058; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 15:10:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201901032310.x03NA8W2099058@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Alan Somers cc: Cy Schubert , Wojciech Puchar , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky , Enji Cooper Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jan 2019 15:51:29 -0700." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <99056.1546557008.1@slippy> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2019 15:10:08 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfG/T0bSt0gWQVSyww2jdZXQdQ3TXgaPTNG0Oht90lc5xEuZIUT5m2I6nOIRjcUiQdFTD7KC3GP4GJ3QeNvZGapPXweQEgwDNh68cFeoTr4ehwc/wd5Vr f8t1nQAGjIT+oQa1A+aV1y+Hl5ZN1eD3kScJkMJ6K0yU5QLJqG+SVtblLBKnkSNH1jVSqwAXvQWT8HTGpo9VnKCwPQZKLk0LBcCYb03JdqlV1dsd+ixsWyyl D4Crv+R+GjJCfH4a7ns2vS3aXesspD2M0hqXYkExADa9sEw0EXMPdhRwFG+1aQtZmXwQrfMfTOsNAJza30uwCA== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 220476E05E X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.99 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[138.136.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.79)[ip: (-4.36), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.50), asn: 6327(-2.00), country: CA(-0.09)]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2019 23:10:19 -0000 In message , Alan Somers writes: > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert w= rote: > > > > In message , Wojciech > > Puchar wr > > ites: > > > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pu= shed* > > > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said > > > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is = a > > > >> resounding NO, save for bloat. > > > > > > > > And this is why one reason people say FreeBSD is dying. > > > > > > > dying for whom? > > > > Not to answer this question but to think strategically: > > > > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of > > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines, > > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today= , > > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations > > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux > > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their > > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is > > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being > > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for > > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of > > supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running > > microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a > > virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and > > containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public > > cloud and back again easily. > > > > Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is > > containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more. > > And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs i= t > > are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost > > effectiveness of standing up applications. > > > > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the > > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language > > Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating > > importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a > > PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position > > FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and > > Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in port= s. > > > > Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator > > and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs i= n > > addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other > > virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or > > FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on on= e > > or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluste= r. > > > > This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future. > > > > Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind. > > > > > > -- > > Cheers, > > Cy Schubert > > FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org > > > > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. > > FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think > there's any reason to put it into base. The interesting thing about > Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed, > Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian > Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji > is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust. These are the > kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the > language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports. > If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base > system, it might be Lua. Though high level, its embeddable and nicely > complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and > it even in the NetBSD kernel. I didn't specifically suggest it had to be in base, hence "or ports." (My preference is almost always ports.) My point was, let's step back and lay out a roadmap. If rust is in the roadmap, fine. Rust, which is already in ports, and other things we might want should align with that direction. Meta ports such as a PaaS, OpenShift, or cloud-server metaports could tie it all together for users. pkgbase would add flexability and in so doing solve some issues too. > > -Alan > Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.