From owner-freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Sat Feb 11 13:35:33 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5D0CDB777 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 2017 13:35:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scratch65535@att.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF35D1ABE for ; Sat, 11 Feb 2017 13:35:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scratch65535@att.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id BBE6DCDB776; Sat, 11 Feb 2017 13:35:33 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ports@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9EBDCDB775 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 2017 13:35:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scratch65535@att.net) Received: from nm9-vm3.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (nm9-vm3.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [216.39.63.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FBBC1ABD for ; Sat, 11 Feb 2017 13:35:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scratch65535@att.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1486819961; bh=IBjvzzjHJG0me9Om+Rvr0dvMNPOsI6ktJhNDb3xcKhk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=1ywWwmj/cZ56DFpRq2p9dxli0qdPP9zIuK3/rjyEfaj9DcUodFQzYe4/Ccmssq6G8H2Fs1VzYknNiB2Poa8/XXYb94OTo7cjhyLEJZ1U7RIal3WsyDWue0QF+B/3qYvsBFMvSfLi/1XixXmoD50Otw7ikkcRLg48Lg2Xfi376lw= Received: from [216.39.60.172] by nm9.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2017 13:32:41 -0000 Received: from [67.195.23.148] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2017 13:32:41 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp120.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2017 13:32:41 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 238730.25547.bm@smtp120.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: cZVgR7sVM1niZsqUjGuMqUP9S1k2OEH2fumvoxRzIMgrjqd YDF.dWE57BgxYQ5m7BZkGHR3aBUlKVemnUIJO67VCsYN.kyK6GTJ2XrzIOXX c1O6Q_qIixUBgEa2bx98H4Q0_f7p_HW1FTCvUns4xPUxZJNdUf2qB04V94R_ 3g7bJ6SWXYuu3FOjGn.vC4gImZrUv7GaKxIm_tUlBhJK6kJoinH28RNRhDGV gqGDpZzsAXAOMgZH6xafD313Iz3ygd6dlPbC420PZlLeZwDPRzRGXF9X8UOE 1qfvil.Qbq_2T2955GizEWpTu.c0JNAkFuKtoEz5D8nu9TjTj.c8svOnh.lg 6tI9EOMA6IVgX1SA_e_s4HsggjskwXkKVky_eqjkHtpIh4DQ1lavkHkRD8I4 rhuGkjb5Ow73auJkm6FxBqi8DyixpidbnfSHSuYdUzt7lVLl_pcildWijev1 3D2axqAeZ2hnGyD0aUF1nfEYoHoyl_r_uDolyy5gjDar1wbXCWKw7DDy6mdo 2KInFmHlJ3c3JCZC.m6dqFCGTfCjC67R.T1.kX1988SzNMrqwv9otlxI82j2 HTFeKK_Mf0rsFk4hXcIJILg-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: pPvqnOaswBBbYZLVYFzvU7GaowLcbNioPp.aF8KvOjZk From: To: freebsd-ports Cc: Mark Linimon Subject: Re: Install of pkg fuse-ntfs fails because of undefined symbol in pkg!?! Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 08:32:41 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1c6cccac-b151-d13c-c763-b336c4680118@freebsd.org> <35a953e3-918b-fc32-d990-51f7da16c884@FreeBSD.org> <99cr9cp6o01ef949dig289bkspipl8mog7@4ax.com> <20170210211849.GB10806@lonesome.com> In-Reply-To: <20170210211849.GB10806@lonesome.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 13:35:34 -0000 On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 15:18:49 -0600, Mark Linimon wrote: >On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 08:17:31AM -0500, scratch65535@att.net wrote: >> A good rule of thumb from industry in the case of major software >> would be "forever", meaning until it's very unlikely that anyone >> is still using it because of hardware obsolescence, etc. > >(Sigh.) And how many people do you think it takes to do such support? A variable number. Level-of-support is a continuum, not a point. Just don't purge the "obsolete" bits, if that's really all the support that can be afforded. It'd be more support than is provided today! > >> Why is Linux able to so easily replace FreeBSD? The desktop is >> gone. Servers are going. The new AMD chips are being tested >> against Intel on Linux boxes, not FreeBSD boxes. FreeBSD is >> being made obsolete. > >In other words, if we move fast enough to try to keep up with Linux >changes, FreeBSD is obsolete. If we move more slowly than Linux, then >FreeBSD is obsolete. > >I'm being serious. We get criticized either way. And is the "keeping up with" working, Mark? Are we regaining share from Linux? No. We're continuing to lose. That strongly suggests that "keeping up" in the way we're doing it is the wrong thing to do and should be stopped while we analyse the problem in a better way, focussing on understanding what Linux is doing that steadily gains them seats at our expense. It's the same competitive analysis anyone in the computer industry --or any industry-- must do if they want to survive. But as the roster of dead computer companies that were once dominant in their space should tell us, too many people just can't bring themselves to do what's needed. > >Also, for package sets, consider that size * each OS release * each >architecture (ok, some architectures) = a lot of disk space. We >simply have finite disk space. A problem that can be solved with money isn't a problem, it's an expense. > >IMHO, the days that we can expect ports maintainers and committers to >keep e.g. a FreeBSD 4.11 viable for years are over. By the EOL of 4.11, >we were asking volunteers to support *4* major OS releases. That was >crazy. Who's suggesting we go back to doing that? > >As for the OS releases, we're trying to keep up with new disk technologies, >new ways of booting, new wireless techniques, graphics APIs that change >rapidly, and on and on. The pace of these changes is outside our control. >We can keep up or become irrelevant. We're all but irrelevant right now and our situation continues to deteriorate, so clearly what we're doing is not working. That's the key take-home here: what we're doing is Not Working. The late theoretical physicist and systems expert W. Edwards Deming captured many situations, including FreeBSD's, in a nutshell: "It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory."