From owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Wed May 1 02:37:44 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B6015813A0 for ; Wed, 1 May 2019 02:37:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from colo1.denninger.net (colo1.denninger.net [104.236.120.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01DE3723B8 for ; Wed, 1 May 2019 02:37:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from denninger.net (ip68-1-57-197.pn.at.cox.net [68.1.57.197]) by colo1.denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3CE1211125 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.10.25] (D15.Denninger.Net [192.168.10.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B508AC845D for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 21:37:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: ZFS... To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org References: <30506b3d-64fb-b327-94ae-d9da522f3a48@sorbs.net> <56833732-2945-4BD3-95A6-7AF55AB87674@sorbs.net> <3d0f6436-f3d7-6fee-ed81-a24d44223f2f@netfence.it> <17B373DA-4AFC-4D25-B776-0D0DED98B320@sorbs.net> <70fac2fe3f23f85dd442d93ffea368e1@ultra-secure.de> <70C87D93-D1F9-458E-9723-19F9777E6F12@sorbs.net> <5ED8BADE-7B2C-4B73-93BC-70739911C5E3@sorbs.net> <2e4941bf-999a-7f16-f4fe-1a520f2187c0@sorbs.net> <34539589-162B-4891-A68F-88F879B59650@sorbs.net> <576857a5-a5ab-eeb8-2391-992159d9c4f2@denninger.net> From: Karl Denninger Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=karl@denninger.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFIX1zsBEADRcJfsQUl9oFeoMfLPJ1kql+3sIaYx0MfJAUhV9LnbWxr0fsWCskM1O4cV tHm5dqPkuPM4Ztc0jLotD1i9ubWvCHOlkLGxFOL+pFbjA+XZ7VKsC/xWmhMwJ3cM8HavK2OV SzEWQ/AEYtMi04IzGSwsxh/5/5R0mPHrsIomV5SbuiI0vjLuDj7fo6146AABI1ULzge4hBYW i/SHrqUrLORmUNBs6bxek79/B0Dzk5cIktD3LOfbT9EAa5J/osVkstMBhToJgQttaMIGv8SG CzpR/HwEokE+7DP+k2mLHnLj6H3kfugOF9pJH8Za4yFmw//s9cPXV8WwtZ2SKfVzn1unpKqf wmJ1PwJoom/d4fGvQDkgkGKRa6RGC6tPmXnqnx+YX4iCOdFfbP8L9rmk2sewDDVzHDU3I3ZZ 8hFIjMYM/QXXYszRatK0LCV0QPZuF7LCf4uQVKw1/oyJInsnH7+6a3c0h21x+CmSja9QJ+y0 yzgEN/nM89d6YTakfR+1xkYgodVmMy/bS8kmXbUUZG/CyeqCqc95RUySjKT2ECrf9GhhoQkl +D8n2MsrAUSMGB4GQSN+TIq9OBTpNuvATGSRuF9wnQcs1iSry+JNCpfRTyWp83uCNApe6oHU EET4Et6KDO3AvjvBMAX0TInTRGW2SQlJMuFKpc7Dg7tHK8zzqQARAQABtCNLYXJsIERlbm5p bmdlciA8a2FybEBkZW5uaW5nZXIubmV0PokCPAQTAQIAJgUCUhfXOwIbIwUJCWYBgAYLCQgH AwIEFQIIAwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEG6/sivc5s0PLxQP/i6x/QFx9G4Cw7C+LthhLXIm7NSH AtNbz2UjySEx2qkoQQjtsK6mcpEEaky4ky6t8gz0/SifIfJmSmyAx0UhUQ0WBv1vAXwtNrQQ jJd9Bj6l4c2083WaXyHPjt2u2Na6YFowyb4SaQb83hu/Zs25vkPQYJVVE0JX409MFVPUa6E3 zFbd1OTr3T4yNUy4gNeQZfzDqDS8slbIks2sXeoJrZ6qqXVI0ionoivOlaN4T6Q0UYyXtigj dQvvhMt0aNowKFjRqrmSDRpdz+o6yg7Mp7qEZ1V6EZk8KqQTH6htpCTQ8i79ttK4LG6bstSF Re6Fwq52nbrcANrcdmtZXqjo+SGbUqJ8b1ggrxAsJ5MEhRh2peKrCgI/TjQo+ZxfnqEoR4AI 46Cyiz+/lcVvlvmf2iPifS3EEdaH3Itfwt7MxFm6mQORYs6skHDw3tOYB2/AdCW6eRVYs2hB RMAG4uwApZfZDKgRoE95PJmQjeTBiGmRPcsQZtNESe7I7EjHtCDLwtJqvD4HkDDQwpzreT6W XkyIJ7ns7zDfA1E+AQhFR6rsTFGgQZRZKsVeov3SbhYKkCnVDCvb/PKQCAGkSZM9SvYG5Yax 8CMry3AefKktf9fqBFg8pWqtVxDwJr56dhi0GHXRu3jVI995rMGo1fLUG5fSxiZ8L5sAtokh 9WFmQpyl Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 21:37:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-512; boundary="------------ms080702000005000509070200" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 01DE3723B8 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.26 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: px.denninger.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.973,0]; SUBJ_ALL_CAPS(0.45)[6]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:104.236.64.0/18, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[197.57.1.68.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-2.52)[ip: (-9.88), ipnet: 104.236.64.0/18(-4.16), asn: 14061(1.47), country: US(-0.06)]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[denninger.net]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[] X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 02:37:44 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080702000005000509070200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/30/2019 20:59, Michelle Sullivan wrote >> On 01 May 2019, at 11:33, Karl Denninger wrote: >> >>> On 4/30/2019 19:14, Michelle Sullivan wrote: >>> >>> Michelle Sullivan >>> http://www.mhix.org/ >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >> Nope. I'd much rather *know* the data is corrupt and be forced to >> restore from backups than to have SILENT corruption occur and perhaps >> screw me 10 years down the road when the odds are my backups have >> long-since been recycled. > Ahh yes the be all and end all of ZFS.. stops the silent corruption of = data.. but don=E2=80=99t install it on anything unless it=E2=80=99s serve= r grade with backups and ECC RAM, but it=E2=80=99s good on laptops becaus= e it protects you from silent corruption of your data when 10 years later= the backups have long-since been recycled... umm is that not a circular= argument? > > Don=E2=80=99t get me wrong here.. and I know you (and some others are) = zfs in the DC with 10s of thousands in redundant servers and/or backups t= o keep your critical data corruption free =3D good thing. > > ZFS on everything is what some say (because it prevents silent corrupti= on) but then you have default policies to install it everywhere .. includ= ing hardware not equipped to function safely with it (in your own argumen= ts) and yet it=E2=80=99s still good because it will still prevent silent = corruption even though it relies on hardware that you can trust... umm s= ay what? > > Anyhow veered way way off (the original) topic... > > Modest (part consumer grade, part commercial) suffered irreversible dat= a loss because of a (very unusual, but not impossible) double power outag= e.. and no tools to recover the data (or part data) unless you have some = form of backup because the file system deems the corruption to be too dan= gerous to let you access any of it (even the known good bits) ... =20 > > Michelle IMHO you're dead wrong Michelle.=C2=A0 I respect your opinion but disagre= e vehemently. I run ZFS on both of my laptops under FreeBSD.=C2=A0 Both have non-power-protected SSDs in them.=C2=A0 Neither is mirrored or Raidz-anyt= hing. So why run ZFS instead of UFS? Because a scrub will detect data corruption that UFS cannot detect *at al= l.* It is a balance-of-harms test and you choose.=C2=A0 I can make a very cle= an argument that *greater information always wins*; that is, I prefer in every case to *know* I'm screwed rather than not.=C2=A0 I can defend agai= nst being screwed with some amount of diligence but in order for that diligence to be reasonable I have to know about the screwing in a reasonable amount of time after it happens. You may have never had silent corruption bite you.=C2=A0 I have had it ha= ppen several times over my IT career.=C2=A0 If that happens to you the odds ar= e that it's absolutely unrecoverable and whatever gets corrupted is *gone.*=C2=A0 The defensive measures against silent corruption require retention of backup data *literally forever* for the entire useful life of the information because from the point of corruption forward *the backups are typically going to be complete and correct copies of the corrupt data and thus equally worthless to what's on the disk itself.*=C2= =A0 With non-ZFS filesystems quite a lot of thought and care has to go into defending against that, and said defense usually requires the active cooperation of whatever software wrote said file in the first place (e.g. a database, etc.)=C2=A0 If said software has no tools to "walk" sai= d data or if it's impractical to have it do so you're at severe risk of being hosed.=C2=A0 Prior to ZFS there really wasn't any comprehensive def= ense against this sort of event.=C2=A0 There are a whole host of applications = that manipulate data that are absolutely reliant on that sort of thing not happening (e.g. anything using a btree data structure) and recovery if it *does* happen is a five-alarm nightmare if it's possible at all.=C2=A0= In the worst-case scenario you don't detect the corruption and the data that has the pointer to it that gets corrupted is overwritten and=C2=A0 destroyed. A ZFS scrub on a volume that has no redundancy cannot *fix* that corruption but it can and will detect it.=C2=A0 This puts a boundary on t= he backups that I must keep in order to *not* have that happen.=C2=A0 This i= s of very high value to me and is why, even on systems without ECC memory and without redundant disks, provided there is enough RAM to make it reasonable (e.g. not on embedded systems I do development on with are severely RAM-constrained) I run ZFS. BTW if you've never had a UFS volume unlink all the blocks within a file on an fsck and then recover them back into the free list after a crash you're a rare bird indeed.=C2=A0 If you think a corrupt ZFS volume is fun= try to get your data back from said file after that happens. --=20 Karl Denninger karl@denninger.net /The Market Ticker/ /[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]/ --------------ms080702000005000509070200 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgMFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC DdgwggagMIIEiKADAgECAhMA5EiKghDOXrvfxYxjITXYDdhIMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMIGL MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEQMA4GA1UECAwHRmxvcmlkYTESMBAGA1UEBwwJTmljZXZpbGxlMRkw FwYDVQQKDBBDdWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgTExDMRgwFgYDVQQLDA9DdWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgQ0ExITAf BgNVBAMMGEN1ZGEgU3lzdGVtcyBMTEMgMjAxNyBDQTAeFw0xNzA4MTcxNjQyMTdaFw0yNzA4 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