From nobody Fri Aug 8 14:20:40 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz5mN18GYz63wct; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz5mM71Twz420J; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:20:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754662852; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=GadmaPY9Ot1obF4GytWLao3FT2ViHCL92vuAtXDqc+E=; b=yla1MGqvlj7tqRYRZtcgIyKPGEXL40UnkTK6SRsXuyI+sSy9evrwlclmr7/CgcBIRD6G8H u3eHpLDTHNzOSdUlUEG29LEqNnijQCWSno+9ra/J0K68P763ETMnNwWkUcYyp9Z5j7v7ko w6bT1OHylJ4b4BpucYbCp7qxwGZLpQ1SxKvVUAdO8Oa+jGtzx86vFBb/STX89+RwTIbeM9 n4vz4ceyMziTpK2ltBApfkBlE7V3mlGGy37LfUpRGwuK4THYxNRBJAw6MUYZhmK/sDYcre nKhg2WbOfPKnIIOoHhXUM+trM0ySyrEP1uteL40kMl1FgfRDXmqMSYdUoPCIlA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754662852; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=GadmaPY9Ot1obF4GytWLao3FT2ViHCL92vuAtXDqc+E=; b=M3jzw9YTnyHZtBebee5D619V09txawOiIxTysyigZB068QFxDoffdiikUMlDGhDaZKObH0 Dv5IUbBaw0JnfQGx9L/3nl5sq71bkX3jQo0eHOf9Vp0zOug6/24/UtEwD1Ffj4l/jgmvrz l7GLSGr1xJQnGvWfZn5f0h9PMBQ7PMP/9AbVSzPL1/de1HbcAIk72+qvirrkzRhtBcP8xV gn0fg6t3FR7hdGXoWKkR8IHvbwV9X49sWeVyqRxLSGjZwc9Ae8colYPn0oWHRk14zFZN3G 8IkyN5Rd+DX8hpZ1OvVLDwF9Z3Lt3+cCMhw2mQTNi1TYlPzGlRHgB0i1dkV98w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754662852; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=vu8I43CjT0/8o6rCoB4bI5xIc/hJ7UTJZFvF6xTMj+f0Cs0uocGfsa1xkSixVaPcQeTPrN O1taqbOAsP24l4MFjfHcuH2nCQUPm7GjcQ1qfjIrxcOCBXpnjAY0atQk/ZTPa7oUUXLQW8 9A6vvafGIjBtb70JagyUVSHHSXpEMjlj58p1Lh5L65l3a9LbE3FNFOchiRNlQ4FcZREzKk u2QMApdwaeHQYOqHE00lBz2Bje6CchBEiVWli++xKNCfUYDnkBnnb7qEwjkdBxf8QcC+s2 eydfGa9lXGawjTRzXBEPk4QZ5f2TacA9YC3Eh5LHTYKnfqrL+N5BidNvwsKQ5Q== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz5mM6FSCzHpY; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:20:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 21B09BD4; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:20:51 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:20:40 +0100 Cc: vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7D0CD326-0CB0-41F0-99C2-BFEB9F4DC1EA@FreeBSD.org> References: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> To: Santiago Martinez X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1) On 8 Aug 2025, at 15:02, Santiago Martinez wrote: >=20 > Hi David, I see your point. >=20 > For me, no pkg command (upgrade / install : delete / lock) should act = on base without the user explicitly targeting base. Why? > This is the same we have today. No extra complexity or confusion, = actually it is quite simple , if you want to touch your base system just = explicitly targeting it ( what we do today with FreeBSD-update) What is the reason that you would want to install updates for packages = built by ports and *not* want to install updates to the base system? Currently, you need to do these separately because they are managed by = two separate tools, but that=E2=80=99s an accident. It was never a = deliberate usability choice to have different ways of updating different = parts of the system. Fixing this is one of the goals of pkgbase. > Regarding the non-base package dependencies with base, it will be also = the same as today. If this is something we are looking to get rid of = then is a different situation. Fixing this is one of the benefits of pkgbase: there is a single upgrade = command, unless you explicitly restrict what it is updating (via -r) = then it will upgrade everything that is out of date. > Nothing stops the user from upgrading base (target base) then = upgrading the rest. Or to have a target that is =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D. This is still possible with pkgbase. If you want to stage things, = simply use the `-r` flag. But when do you *actively want* that? =20 > I think most of the FreeBSD user like the separation of base and non = base and the current status seems to get rid of it. Hence some of us = are putting attention to it ( maybe too much) This is a gross mischaracterisation driven by Vermaden=E2=80=99s love of = hyperbole. No one is removing the distinction between the base system and ports. = The base system remains: - The thing installed in /, not in /usr/local (or whatever else you put = in $LOCALBASE when you build the ports). - A uniform set of things maintained by the project. - The set of things with stable ABI guarantees during a major release. - A self-contained set of things with no external dependencies. - A set of things with a support lifecycle maintained by the FreeBSD = Release Engineering team. Every single one of these properties (and probably others I haven=E2=80=99= t thought of) are preserved. The only difference is that upgrades are = simpler because I have a uniform tool that manages all of the things = that the FreeBSD project distributes (and other things that other people = distribute as package repos). Every upgrade flow I have on every FreeBSD machine I use is simplified = by pkgbase. Having fewer tools is a usability win. Having a single = command upgrade everything is a usability win. If you *want to* upgrade = only some things, that=E2=80=99s one extra command-line flag. David