From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 5 12:41:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FFAE16A4DC for ; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:41:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from orb.pobox.com (orb.pobox.com [207.8.226.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C9143DB6 for ; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:41:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from discussion-lists@linnet.org) Received: from orb (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orb.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA2C9AC; Thu, 5 May 2005 08:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from billdog.local.linnet.org (dsl-212-74-113-65.access.uk.tiscali.com [212.74.113.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by orb.sasl.smtp.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78E28C; Thu, 5 May 2005 08:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists by billdog.local.linnet.org with local (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1DTfhD-0000WI-Rn; Thu, 05 May 2005 13:43:15 +0100 Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:43:15 +0100 From: Brian Candler To: Warner Losh Message-ID: <20050505124315.GA1947@uk.tiscali.com> References: <5207b55e44478fa93e3689ad79b54f4d@mac.com> <20050504.152439.71089989.imp@bsdimp.com> <20050504.163618.112621888.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050504.163618.112621888.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: boot banner project X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 12:41:27 -0000 On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 04:36:18PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > Most people never use the root shell directly It's the very first point of contact with FreeBSD, when you login as root, before you create new users. And after that, you get it whenever you use "su". Once you've got to the point of installing and using sudo (which is not part of the base system) then you won't see it. > and all shell scripts are /bin/sh > anyway... > > It truely is one of those things that just doesn't matter at all. It matters to me, when I'm trying to introduce people to Unix, as it is an arbitrary inconsistency. By all means have root's shell as csh by default, as long as all other accounts are created with csh as default shell too. That, in my opinion, would be somewhat better than what we have today; switching users with 'su' wouldn't then give them a different shell to work in. However, you'd then be left with the inconsistency that you're using one shell syntax for interactive use, and a completely different one for writing scripts; even now I catch myself out by typing # for i in *; do {some stuff}; done when in csh, and then cursing it. At the moment I'm left trying to explain to people why, in a default FreeBSD install, you get one shell for root and a different one for others. It gives a bad impression of the system if the only explanation I can give is "yes this is stupid, but it was a good idea 25 years ago, and nobody thinks it's worthwhile fixing it". Yes, if you're an experienced FreeBSD user it doesn't matter 2 jots, because you can do whatever you prefer (change root's shell, or change your other users' shells) to fix it, in a matter of seconds. But, in my experience, it *does* impede getting comfortable with the system quickly for newcomers, by which I mean primarily newcomers to Unix, as opposed to migrants from Linux. Regards, Brian.