From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 19 14:10:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558A716A4CE; Thu, 19 May 2005 14:10:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vms046pub.verizon.net (vms046pub.verizon.net [206.46.252.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1365643D41; Thu, 19 May 2005 14:10:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Alex.Kovalenko@verizon.net) Received: from RabbitsDen ([138.89.63.123]) by vms046.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2 HotFix 0.04 (built Dec 24 2004)) with ESMTPA id <0IGQ008W2Q1WFY33@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:10:45 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:08:45 -0400 From: "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" In-reply-to: <20050519135735.L66491@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> To: Harti Brandt Message-id: <1116511725.694.37.camel@RabbitsDen> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-5 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <20050516203932.0A38316A4D0@hub.freebsd.org> <42890874.4030600@t-hosting.hu><20050517173737.GA60953@thought.org> <428B59A0.7030108@netstream.ru> <20050518164326.GA69208@thought.org> <20050519135735.L66491@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> cc: stable@freebsd.org cc: Andrey Smirnov cc: current@freebsd.org cc: Bill Paul cc: Gary Kline cc: Erich Dollansky Subject: Re: Alright you primitive screwheads, LISTEN UP!! X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:10:48 -0000 On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 14:06 +0200, Harti Brandt wrote: > On Wed, 18 May 2005, Gary Kline wrote: > GK> Andrey, while I'm talking to a real Russian, I've got a > GK> question that you can answer. [[Sorry that this is going > GK> far OT, gang, but I've been wondering about this since I read > GK> Dostoevsky.]] *Why* are some people addressed by their > GK> first name _and_ by what may/must? be their middle names?? > GK> I remember some woman who seemed upset at Boris Yeltsin > GK> (when he was still President) call him "Boris > GK> [A_Very_Long_String_of_Characters]" Is this to indicate > GK> irony, or affection, or anger... or what? Not pretending to be "real" Russian (or really Russian ;), I would still like to point out that concept of the middle name is not clearly applicable to the name forming schema in Russia (or Ukraine for that matter). Third part of the name (besides surname/family name and first name/given name) is made up from the first name of your father suitably mutilated to reflect the fact that you belong to his family. This form would be different from your father's name and, normally have male and female version. Rules to produce this form from the original name are fairly formalized, so knowing the name of your father, native Russian speaker would rarely have a difficulty coming up with the proper form. Now, on to the original question -- use of the (for the lack of the better term) "paternal" name is somewhat equivalent to the use of the Mr./Mrs/Ms. prefix in English speaking cultures (now, not being native to one of these cultures, I beg for forgiveness if my understanding is incorrect). This means that Michail Sergeevitch Gorbachev (sorry, I do not remember Yeltsin's "paternal" name) could be formally addressed as Michail Sergeevitch or Tovarisch Gorbachev (prior to Perestroika), with "Tovarisch" giving way to "Gospodin" in past-Perestroika times, but never Michail Gorbachev. Out of the two using last name with the prefix form would be something reserved for public forums and such. Now, to circle back to my original explanation, his father's first name would be Sergey and his sister (provided he had one) would go by Sergeevna. > > While Andrey is still typing his answer... Just to make it more confusing: > In Russian there are usually dozens, if not hundreds of different forms of > the first name: Tatjana - Tanjusha - Tanjucha - Tanja - Tanka - > Tanjetschka - Tanjuschetshka ... Some of them having some kind of > emotional load which may depend on the concrete situation and the relation > between the two people. I would have to point out that in the form of first+paternal only one of the above could be used, eg. Tatjana Sergeevna. > > Furthermore besides refering to one by first name > or first+middle name, you can also refer by last name only, which is kind > of offending. And you can refer by middle name only which gives it a kind > of vulgar intimacy (hope that's the right word for it). Use of the last name only was not considered offensive (at least in mid/late 80s) under the same circumstances where roll call might be applicable, e.g. teacher addressing pupil, or in the military setting. It could also be used with the same level of intimacy as addressing people by "paternal" name only. -- Alexandre "Sunny" Kovalenko (Олександр Коваленко)