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Date:      Sun, 27 Jan 2013 02:43:06 -0500
From:      "Isaac (.ike) Levy" <ike@blackskyresearch.net>
To:        Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>
Cc:        freebsd-doc@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: removing CVS in Handbook Updating and Upgrading chapter
Message-ID:  <1359272644-7225342.63753895.fr0R7h69h018255@rs149.luxsci.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAF6rxg=_cih7rvDM7WcdRpksCvh7jF7LzeKE0qeO2RHPDw2JfA@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301241510470.86451@wonkity.com> <alpine.GSO.1.10.1301251321400.9389@multics.mit.edu> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301251154450.5025@wonkity.com> <1359241802-3572135.75152325.fr0QN9mrI032137@rs149.luxsci.com> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301261808410.2537@wonkity.com> <CAF6rxg=_cih7rvDM7WcdRpksCvh7jF7LzeKE0qeO2RHPDw2JfA@mail.gmail.com>

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On Jan 26, 2013, at 9:26 PM, Eitan Adler wrote:
> On 26 January 2013 21:05, Warren Block <wblock@wonkity.com>
>=20
>>> Not sure if I need to explain this, but:
>>> For a large number of system integrators, building userland/kernel =
from
>>> source is critical.
>>> Most of these builds happen before ports/pkg get installed, (if they =
even
>>> do).  The current state of SVN, binary packages, ports mechanism =
changes,
>>> and otherwise- all make for some nasty chicken/egg problems for many =
systems
>>> integrators.
>=20
> We should certainly be striving to remove references to CVS from as
> many places as possible. =20

That, I agree with, excepting fetching src/base for the =
buildworld;makeworld dance.

cvsup for base/src does not even have an end-of-life date yet, and the =
replacements are either:

- not clear
- not finished
- complex, confused, and difficult for systems integrators
  (people who buildworld/buildkernel as the stable base underneath =
everything)

> I have no objections to leaving one
> (obviously marked) chapter about the old way of doing things.

For developers, I can agree that cvsup is totally the wrong tool.
Yet, that information should maybe be in the developers handbook, =
perhaps in the "tools" section:
=
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/developers-handbook/tools=
.html

(If yall' think that's a good idea, I'll happily write up a page to =
start with)

>> This part of the Handbook refers to fetching source for -CURRENT or =
-STABLE.
>> We should not be suggesting CVS to new users who want to run =
development
>> versions of FreeBSD. =20

Oh, I see your perspective, but FreeBSD systems administrators are well =
accustomed to running -CURRENT and -STABLE, along with -REL and -RELENG, =
in production.

Here's some circumstances admins may build STABLE:
- Prepping an environment for upcoming releases
- Providing QA/bugs back to FreeBSD *before* REL goes out the door
- STABLE may contain a necessary bugfix, security fix, or other =
necessary feature in a given environment

Here's some circumstances admins may build a given moment of CURRENT:
- All the same issues from STABLE could warrant some point of CURRENT
- some existing code may need to be manually backported quickly in an =
emergency
  (I've done my fair share of "grep hacking" to solve crisis situations =
as an SA)

I hope that's understood?

Best,
.ike





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