From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 4 00:42:59 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB042143CD29 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 00:42:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D65570F0B for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 00:42:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id l11so38925152qtp.0 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2019 16:42:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YpFmwknHRBOXRRMw/sougMgSWY/yvwjT14exLmgF9Uo=; b=P2anVl1ZbTxb8Ugk2Vz3iGeg5sfZ+MfoF1fs0MpT8c3Y8CU923Qu11y4mUH+g/2bVe 0QKCcQqUnS9GFlMpWqpHjF5FyDlIBgPRcupHzuSXPTiXYHZKANoijEgz3pw7qmJ92xe0 ezJeonNnbj28TBBz08dzqv/nuYCx4u2alHk4dUBkCzMDxsAhod6eUMSvt+aRmqDHwgMc gYRSz6qMiB7QDcjMwW5zfqyQiLlEMcAV3dHRpZqWPLUfh67PtZ7Omj96p1uzbgxcs1Lt g+Dl7akv59BLBoZ9UV6YIunRaH7PYqUlBXQwuiYdRDcGgQkSRsGh5cvdop6J7oa5WJSW FczA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YpFmwknHRBOXRRMw/sougMgSWY/yvwjT14exLmgF9Uo=; b=EfRtl3oVvG8LtAnyHGDdywq5fHtTHzSQ6llJo6Esjgx0Ul/QKsgdUqRaR4A6a5EXIk 3OR7cEWLXnh+lYcDOGDLnN5iJQ8EHmdvyMXv1Xp+IiYtzOOVyAdP/W7eFEgunZ43HEbJ IIVALzikfC0xK4URzM5TWtt7io1hiWH7ed4qVJLMmRsvDXTls/KyveMJGGxD4AEeZKqM YPisBktl1gV3+bZ83Uzh1J2Qogo9iqIXrPjLhGK/8jerS3QrIndFZXkyMhHJhecjSSHg 8WbGfHmPcXlY6ymNTcZugRxEPOj9R+RNl2CDuy0odpVKP5jmJtVj31Qb7y1mma0UxVZ9 5M8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukec9qniJeFGdMpkRJ2fBtpJw+ibd7p/ZMPgq+Py9HO4ST+gR8Lo 9dNK5s5QENrWaKR9pSyDdlXLlwSoD+8XscrI2AGLFX+f X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7TI2zRJxAFQoN+dmmy/wCwfW1gxhmJhZ+gn95T+XRvesBS/GoOq4LDdO0/Ydyj1pJ8QTZjVGoEpnNp8sp7Nkc= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:9549:: with SMTP id m9mr49488869qvm.214.1546562576870; Thu, 03 Jan 2019 16:42:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201901032228.x03MSxkq087945@slippy.cwsent.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 17:42:44 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) To: Alan Somers Cc: Cy Schubert , FreeBSD Hackers , Enji Cooper , Igor Mozolevsky , Wojciech Puchar X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 9D65570F0B X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=P2anVl1Z X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.34 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT1.aspmx.l.google.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.772,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; IP_SCORE(-2.56)[ip: (-8.93), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.15), asn: 15169(-1.64), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2019 00:42:59 -0000 On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 3:53 PM Alan Somers On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert > wrote: > > > > In message , Wojciech > > Puchar wr > > ites: > > > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get > *pushed* > > > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said > > > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a > > > >> resounding NO, save for bloat. > > > > > > > > And this is why one reason people say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93FreeBSD = is dying=C3=A2=E2=82=AC . > > > > > > > dying for whom? > > > > Not to answer this question but to think strategically: > > > > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of > > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines, > > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today, > > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations > > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux > > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their > > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is > > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being > > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for > > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of > > supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running > > microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a > > virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and > > containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public > > cloud and back again easily. > > > > Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is > > containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more. > > And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it > > are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost > > effectiveness of standing up applications. > > > > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the > > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language > > Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating > > importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a > > PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position > > FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and > > Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports= . > > > > Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator > > and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in > > addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other > > virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or > > FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one > > or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster= . > > > > This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future. > > > > Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind. > > > > > > -- > > Cheers, > > Cy Schubert > > FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org > > > > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. > > FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think > there's any reason to put it into base. The interesting thing about > Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed, > Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian > Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji > is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust. These are the > kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the > language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports. > If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base > system, it might be Lua. Though high level, its embeddable and nicely > complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and > it even in the NetBSD kernel. > We already have. The boot loader uses the latest, almost stock version. ZFS uses it's weird, hacked version to send down config programs. The build glue to get a luac is pretty small at this point :) Warner > > -Alan > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " >