From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 7 02:12:56 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C3DA6557C for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 02:12:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark@heily.com) Received: from mail-io0-x234.google.com (mail-io0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F199E153B for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 02:12:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark@heily.com) Received: by mail-io0-x234.google.com with SMTP id q21so237559297iod.0 for ; Wed, 06 Jan 2016 18:12:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heily-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=BYq/BLHrrAKzk9CvuEz757KfPQh7EZCsUbclryGWbRo=; b=mYFBTsUGOV8SObKyJc8fv6Vxmx3vrgzil1GYLggToIaspQMqxg/mzqw33tc7jlSdbP N9OzBUl7Pgwb4JkQL7IoGjV9CCc46oo2xK6EGqUeT8toxh51aBhCN1fBeuwjjTwNMWkS dbXiQvt0VEhQtHX86hYd+3/c7ZjLcXm652RCJzaEsYFZxeMaBElNoT3UsANzaJNHOS7R dSTI0JRjVJ9L28aPga4jpNW8XW1w+ZfYGQ7q7V5kUDTVvzigiAWYOKJr3mJ+Y9CgDsxW 55CmT31QqTYivb3X40Lz28xgokOF1ggV/iZrRnFCJ1VtcVwEzt1gIkA6k0g5BQX5mN3a Jezw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=BYq/BLHrrAKzk9CvuEz757KfPQh7EZCsUbclryGWbRo=; b=mFv17NPXD1dx3PfN/tgaXhRDMX4J0jb/p02hbLgXWIxytzpe2xNnGaJwb1dF7J0Ez9 E6BVHlojezqVrIK38v5nxQdMUkPRu9Y1zs5h9QIhSB/psDceZOsY/6/Brn0nmTmcgsRp 8pJ1BLyqjUOndT4+etlEYCtXjy2FJP+CrzTqvneRWPDSR6Ng2syuiJViL5qJoUoR3PG+ giZF+ApWtGa0EHEL6OVDQQXCoX8swWhQGBO2RXdOAF7xsl7DmIAe/MT2M367SWJ6B+JU K1qWLafdX9IWTykEPY1qjHHvsl2C1s0Ra9MKT0l2ANVHBwkP6IOBhbs2yFfdnkxPq7RM gZxw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlJI14g4JLZ3Tg07+Mw1b892FtyJmKC3yQMchAiBolc1g+H1K4J3de8JHiXu6qMkiWZcxEiwtHU3Ck/tz85yeLtJuiNQQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.30.144 with SMTP id e138mr4354567ioe.158.1452132775123; Wed, 06 Jan 2016 18:12:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.79.34.196 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:12:55 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [71.70.175.250] In-Reply-To: <5687D3A9.5050400@NTLWorld.com> References: <5687D3A9.5050400@NTLWorld.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 21:12:55 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: relaunchd: a portable clone of launchd From: Mark Heily To: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2016 02:12:56 -0000 On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: > > I recommend, to anyone going down this route, looking towards finishing > systembsd, especially instead of inventing a wholly new suite of protocols. > > * https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systembsd.git > * > http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html > * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10176275 > > The reason is that finishing systemdbsd will make happy all of the people > who want the desktop environments whose design is driven largely by Linux to > work on FreeBSD/PC-BSD. The desktop environments that they'd like to use > have been or are being modified to work with these daemons, over this D-Bus > protocol. > I strongly disagree with your recommendation to adopt DBus and systemd as core components of FreeBSD. >From a practical perspective, the proposal has a low probability of success. Systemd is written for Linux and is largely driven by a commercial Linux vendor. It is a rapidly moving target, with no sense of scope or boundaries. It eagerly consumes the latest and greatest innovations in the Linux kernel, with open disdain for portability. >From a philosophical perspective, I don't agree with the direction that systemd is taking Linux. It's one of the reasons I switched to BSD after many years in the Linux camp. To quote Spock, "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". In case of FreeBSD, this means that the needs of the desktop users should not outweigh the needs of the server/jail/embedded/appliance users. My concern with systemd and DBus is that these tools are highly desktop-centric, and introduce a large degree of unwanted change, complexity, and risk to everyone else. If you really believe that implementing more systemd compatibility layers is the way to go, maybe you should import systembsd into the Nosh source tree, and carry on the work there?