From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 13:25:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1644C3696E2 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:25:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGHTp6rw8z4Pp3 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:25:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.117.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AE409294E7 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:25:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from PD0786.local (130.31-255-62.static.virginmediabusiness.co.uk [62.255.31.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 62FCAF8C3 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:25:00 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/62FCAF8C3; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: change in tcsh behavior To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <24351.24025.555285.682585@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <24352.4650.708202.473784@jerusalem.litteratus.org> From: matthew@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:24:58 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24352.4650.708202.473784@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:25:03 -0000 On 28/07/2020 12:55, Robert Huff wrote: > > From: Robert Huff > To: Mateusz Piotrowski <0mp@FreeBSD.org> > Subject: Re: change in tcsh behavior > In-Reply-To: > References: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> > > <24351.24025.555285.682585@jerusalem.litteratus.org> > > X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) > --text follows this line-- > > Hello: > >> > > How do I go back to the old output? >> > >> > Set sysctl kern.tty_info_kstacks to 0. >> >> > Umm ... is there a reason this isn't the default? >> >> I think the idea was that it is useful enough to enable it by >> default. Otherwise, it would be really hard to discover it. This >> change was well received by various developers, and it also had an >> revision where the default was changed from 1 to 2 (or something) >> to make it a little bit more compact. > > And if it makes their life easier, then I approve. > However: > 1) something visibly changed, that > 2) affects the default system shell and therefore a _lot_ of > users, many of which like the old way > 3) without warning or documentation (e.g. a single line entry in > src/UPDATING), and figuring out what happened is, in your > words "really hard to discover" for the casual user. > The OP is running 13-CURRENT. That's the bleeding edge, development version. New stuff appears in CURRENT all the time, possibly with little more notice than a review on Phabricator or a short e-mail exchange. Some of what appears is initially buggy. Some is experimental and ultimately ends up completely different. As someone who has chosen to use the development version, you are expected to be able to cope. If you aren't prepared to deal with that, then choose one of the release versions. These come with all sorts of niceties, like release notes, guarantees of ABI stability, no untested code and no massive re-engineering. The `kern.tty_info_kstacks` sysctl will appear in the next stable release branch due out later this year. IIRC it will be present but default to '0' thus preserving existing behaviour. (I could be wrong about that. I'm trying to recall a conversation on Slack from several weeks ago.) In any case, there will be an item in the release notes and all of the usual sorts of documentation. Cheers, Matthew