From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 28 11:17:21 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BD6615DF5CB for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:17:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E398B6D83F for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:17:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.13.22]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MkYkI-1iQIUz0zqY-00m1Sa for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:17:11 +0200 Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:17:11 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I've got a major question... Message-Id: <20190628131711.f6b0638c.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20190628064243.000007b0@seibercom.net> References: <20190626063443.51ad3f1b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20190627081518.9dc6f3c2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20190627091012.44fc65a7@archlinux> <20190627103701.7ea401b8@archlinux> <20190627110340.d0d87cfe.freebsd@edvax.de> <20190627113712.8a8ffbb238f478b08514cf72@sohara.org> <20190627080134.000012d6@seibercom.net> <20190627141756.1bf4a848.freebsd@edvax.de> <20190627153043.7ce7553c@archlinux> <77a7ea05-6264-d052-e03b-1cc889172f38@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20190627151221.00004412@seibercom.net> <20190627221604.7794d7b0@archlinux> <20190628072716.7efaf909.freebsd@edvax.de> <20190628064243.000007b0@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:szzgcAPxi3k97EL6skeEp8O5IHrvlO1Wa91rlLic6eK12jK8BhF uRrwNcMXedUX66X8sbwfykCYMDtbPZtkjGQ4snoccOGEEGU9xj17kRPJzZJVGmRl22sI202 fUJnfbk0OwTVVY8diAK0GxGZYJ9rB8hoab7VqZSBwXtbW89fwTPgXdtm5CRbdoT9198oBqo yN8de8QbzEWJpv5PkX80w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:wiUsXSPvZnA=:TCn8Mdh3kEGL6AktezJA3u CNRmIWMHp9Ve9oF/OKGTxL5mLqb298EWhKjqcQugm7YrfzBjNzMO7EOiX0NlSIPN2r3HuVSQr USiMJo91tJ85BcZD/kIdIHYxDhCWIg6yV5QQPN8ps5CDy9gqvMtLPTIPiLDXWsw4V6OJLIftT dV1HaVYvtlNflbdhVCT8X8yhprWh/TVsiaj6O1NeNqN8kEYOTyars6cXhL8eD1dPoakgooT31 ICaXpMfHicmRyAumKTOGFcLtXhS5val6ttiHKV6BXzaieW15vY7GX6mkoCn/7BtQvXGgb3jdZ 7KigI7HPy42OI2c2ZA39/4AFBFZJ5aka19RbXh/o/YD5tHPRgdG72OmqzWN5rCHi4018cI/Dt WnQfQutsYyQe+05Czi5RagXsOCoIUnjv6ThxNe9wOS5SazCZym8TwFKnMhFsEPZXt33HsuZGP QHCRfMBCe+lOCJRhQlsNsMz6OMx0BU+4SrnAR4ybejh4iLElhFdXTk+aSjeSoBdQU2+lvP3lu MdOCIBZ59Cs4KQj0IsEQ5w86ZTgsh0gZN+n8CUVYtVw9MdBfYscuimdwoLJd9ZeIzVfZK0Ymo bP7G66+UG+Z+WVtOe2e1u/3Dhllb0WNSN3ThGPwqjy0y5EIqr/QSQaTaB/5mutX+T6oyPKKNK xfSjnflO+plMXYkFS7fMdDdKcYe5iR9VTuJ/VD297K9B02oYhKu50p6lI3yn9yzKIg0HZwBdW 1qgQIX0o4JMi7sT0g1weqSx+aPCu1s4WRa1D8qGmrE7k6wY26DcZRs2Idkw= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E398B6D83F X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.59 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[mx00.schlund.de,mx01.schlund.de]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.02)[-0.025,0]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[22.13.222.94.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.84)[0.840,0]; IP_SCORE(0.38)[ip: (0.85), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.39), asn: 8560(2.46), country: DE(-0.01)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.999,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:17:21 -0000 On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 06:42:43 -0400, Jerry wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:27:16 +0200, Polytropon stated: > >On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 22:16:04 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions > >wrote: > >> Software to rent for artists could be a serious problem. I don't want > >> the software for free as in beer. I want to buy (pay for it and then > >> own) the software I want to use, since there are times when I have > >> money and there are times all I've got to eat, are the wallpapers > >> from my walls. To do some work, the software to do the work is > >> needed. If an artist can't pay the rent for the software, the artist > >> can't do the artwork to earn money. > > > >And even if you buy a book, the book will stop working. > >Repeat: The books will stop working. > > > >https://twitter.com/rdonoghue/status/1144011630197522432 > > > >The "always online & for rent" doesn't just add financial problems > >as expressed above, but can also introduce new security pitfalls, > >plus the "extra pay" you (as the user) provide by allowing the > >vendor to harvest your usage behaviour and sell that to what I > >often call their real clients: the advertising industry. And if > >you don't pay, your data - the art _you_ created - is held hostage > >until you pay. Or it is "accidentally" lost in which case, as per > >the EULA, you don't have any rights for compensation. > > > >And remember: The books will stop working. :-) > > Your analogy is seriously flawed on so many levels. For instance, I > purchased 5.25” floppy discs 30 years ago with programs that I cannot > now get to run on any modern OS, and that is assuming I locate a 5.25” > drive. I won’t even bother discussing 8-inch (203 mm) media. Times > change, you must learn to accept it. You're comparing physical to nonphysical items, as well as short-term and long-term. This is flawed twice. Additionally, you're refering to OS environments that do no longer exist. If you have the urgent need to "keep alive" hardware and software from many decades ago, there probably is a good reason for it, maybe some software that costed $$$$$ and needs to interface with some specific old hardware that still runs and needs to keep running. I'm saying this because I have a few of those "museum cases" where things just need to be "kept alive", because there simply is no alternative that is technically or financially viable. Because _some_ things do _not_ change. > Documents created with either Adobe due not suddenly “stop” working if > you cancel your lease. They are fully available with either a > stand-alone version of Adobe or with a program capable of open PDFs. I > know because I have done it; plus, it states so on Adobe’s web site. > Nothing created by the user ceases to work. You have probably misinterpreted what I tried to say: With the "lease model", non-local storage can be the key problem if you fail to pay. Creation and output is only possible through the program itself, be it a stand-alone installation or an online version. As long as someone else is involved, and you do not store your stuff locally (with _any_ program being able to get access to it), the moment you fail to pay can be the moment your works are gone. > In Adobe, you have the option of opting out of allowing Adobe to > harvest your data. There are two options, one to collect your usage > data and another to collect program data should it crash. I see no > legitimate reason to opt out of the latter, but that is an individual > decision to make. It is. Reality shows that such decision making isn't always easy, because the corresponding controls are hidden, buried on some sub-dialog or preference page. The default, in my opinion, should be to make the decision at the first run of the software, with the standard value being "no data transmitted". Giving away your data for free (!) should be an active decision, not something you need to express your dissent later on. > Both Adobe’s and Microsoft’s new business model of leasing software has > proven successful. Customers like the fact that the software is kept > up-to-date, and the cost of the product has declined dramatically. Depends. For example, most of my customers are complaining that updates break their workflow, slow down operations, and cause hardware to stop working ("Scanner has stopped working after update, please help!" or "My screen looks all funny, right after the reboot the update caused."). Some of them even do not perform those updates in fear something would break. This is of course a problem from a security point of view. But you probably know this from corporate installations where updates are not performed in an O(n) manner on individual PCs running home version of "Windows", but instead the whole process is controlled by the IT department. Even in such cases, important updates are _not_ done because they need some internal review and excessive testing, and if someone says, "This will break the functionality of our software module X version Y, we can't do this update.", the update is also _not_ done. Don't get me started about corporate IT security... ;-) Regarding costs: Recently I had a client complain about the software they were using. They changed from a yearly fee, let's just pretend $200, to a quarterly fee of $80. And $80 is less than $200, right? Plus, there is no installation media anymore, you need to download the software at your own costs (time and transfer volume, because that particular customer only has slow Internet, which hasn't been a problem before). So: No, it's not always cheaper. But I completely agree with your statement regarding home users. As they don't control their smartphones and tables, why should they control their computers which are no longer PCs (_their_ personal computers)? Smartphone OS updates come in automatically, are installed without much interaction; tablet software gets its updates, new version is available without big trouble. Security holes are dealt with in a quick manner, as it should be. Given that a significant amount of spam, DDoS trouble etc. is generated from home PCs running "Windows" versions which aren't patched properly, automated (and let me just say "forced") updates are a good solution. And nothing requires the user to have any kind of knowledge about how a computer works, what an operating system is or why security matters to everyone. > In > the case of Microsoft, their Office 365 HOME offers six products, Word, > Excel, PowerPoint, One Note, Outlook, Publisher, Access, 60-minutes of > Skype, and 1TB Cloud Storage. At $99.99 for five separate installations > with up to 6 users, that works out to less than $20 per install for > over, at retail, a $1000 of software. And you get almost the same for free with LibreOffice, plus it will open files that "Office 365" has stopped supporting many years ago, plus you can store in standardized document formats, plus you can output to PDF directly, and so on, and you can use the same program on any platform and OS. ;-) > Leasing software is not > the perfect business plan for all users; however, in many cases, it > fits into their business model perfectly. In some cases, like mine, it > works out as a nice tax deduction, although a small one. I won't disagree here. In the past, renting both hardware and software has been a typical construct, and of benefit for the users. This changed with the age of personal computers, and changed back with the dawn of mobile computing, I would say. Of course there is no "one size fits all". -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...