Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:45:15 -0700 From: Adam Weinberger <adam@vectors.cx> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed Message-ID: <20020814004515.GX2818@vectors.cx> In-Reply-To: <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com> References: <1631.192.168.1.10.1028329834.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020802194944.R95370-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <2534.192.168.1.10.1028334913.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020803004445.GA11182@branwen.sfo.geekhouse.net> <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com>
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-Adam
>> (08.13.2002 @ 1735 PST): John-David Childs said, in 5.9K: <<
> I was going to let this thread by, but I just can't help it.
>
> I've been using FreeBSD for almost eight years. Unfortunately, I
> haven't been able to contribute as much as I'd like...I keep thinking
> that someday soon this will change, especially as I get more and more
> pissed at the holier than thou attitude of most people on the questions
> and stable lists (as referenced by the example below).
>
> If you like FreeBSD because it's a niche OS that no one else you work
> with knows, or it makes you kewl, or you think it gives you job
> security, or you like the little devil, press delete now. If you like
> FreeBSD because the VM rocks, the ports/packages system kicks a$$, or
> the (until recently) excruciatingly close scrutiny of MFC'd patches and
> security issues, and you believe you have a civic duty to "show them the
> way", then you're the audience I'm addressing.
>
> Plain and simple...the reason that Linux is used by 10 people (I'm
> probably massively underestimating) for every FreeBSD user (not counting
> Apple's marketing campaign) has NOTHING to do with whether it's a better
> OS. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that Linux is easier to
> install *and maintain* than FreeBSD...and most responses on the
> questions/stable lists seem to think that's ok ("let the idiots use
> Linux, the people who know use *BSD"). The problem with that thinking
> is that if "no one" (term used loosely) uses *BSD, then
>
> 1) getting a user-base large enough to effectively trouble-shoot/improve
> the OS becomes difficult. If an up-and-coming programmer/hacker is
> looking ahead to which OS is likely to land them a job...it's not going
> to be Free/Open/NetBSD.
>
> 2) getting driver support from commercial entities is next to
> impossible. If there aren't enough users to justify demand, it isn't
> going to be (cost) effective to write/support it.
>
> 3) getting support to install it as a server OS in medium-large
> (especially non-ISP) based businesses is next to impossible. While *BSD
> may have scored some initial successes, and Apple's support of BSD is
> admirable (but Apple has always been considered a "niche" player, and
> has fsckd-up more "initiatives" than I can count), most corporate
> managers whose jobs are on the line will ask themselves "If the shit
> hits the fan...".
>
> Less users = less admins = less programmers = less (corporate) support =
> less installations = less demand = less users =
>
> Granted...I don't want any of the *BSD's to become a RedHat behemoth,
> but I would like to not have cream pie thrown in my face every time I
> suggest a FreeBSD server. Five years ago, when *BSD and Linux were
> roughly neck and neck, it wasn't that hard to sell *BSD on technical
> merits. Now...it's all about who will support it when I get hit by a
> truck. How easy is it to set up? How easy is it (compared to Linux,
> Solaris, SGI, AIX, HPUX, etc) to install and administrate? Can it do
> clusters? Can it (natively) participate in a SAN? Is there a
> commercial package for VLAN support? How 'bout a commercial firewall?
> (Yes, I know and you know that ipf/ipfw/TIS does the job, but once we
> leave the company the next admin either has to spend days/weeks learning
> ipf/ipfw or s/he'll trash it immediately, bad-mouthing your stupid
> decisions all the way up the management chain).
>
> And it all starts with a (relatively) easy to use installer (sysinstall
> has gotten MUCH better, but still has too many ways to get lost in
> TABS/ESC/whoops and still looks infantile to other text-based
> installers), and at least the option for a workstation install (not a
> "instant workstation" port, which could take hours or days to
> compile/install, but an out-of-the-CD installation of Gnome or KDE with
> (or without, by choice) popular options (Evolution,
> OpenOfffice/Abiword+Gnumeric, etc)). And yes, a "dummy-fied" package
> upgrader like RedHat Updater or MandrakeUpdate (which friggin rocks when
> you have to update 50 machines across an enterprise).
>
> BSD'ers have always been a finicky lot, and have always preferred the
> RTFM/do-it-yourself approach. That's great...to a point...but
> eventually will relegate us to the land of A/UX, CP/M, and OS/2 (now
> there's a niche player). "You decide which is right, and which is an
> illusion."
>
> As requested, replies are redirected to freebsd-chat. I'm going to see
> about getting some "official" time to work on the installer, or the
> docs, or both. Replies directly to my address will be /dev/nulled
> because of the list spam collectors...those of you who "know" will be
> able to find me :-)
> --
>
> John-David Childs (JC612) Enterprise Internet Solutions
> Systems Administration 9616 Pecos St, Thornton CO 80260
> & Network Engineering A fourth .sig line is a waste!
>
>
> On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 18:44, Jim Mock wrote:
> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 at 20:35:13 -0400, Mike wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Mike wrote:
> > > >> Stick with videos.. Please. --
> > > >
> > > > Very funny. You mean "videoconferencing." And anyways, there is an
> > > > expression: "The best of both worlds," you know?
> > >
> > > "videoconferencing."
> > > It's two words. Not one.
> > > I know all about you. Your all about SPAM. Besides, ask a stupid
> > > question
> >
> > That would be "You're". If you're going to flame him for
> > "videoconferencing" at least spell shit right otherwise you end up
> > looking even more stupid than you did for flaming him in the first
> > place.
> >
> > > get a stupid answer. you know? At least get a decent name for this
> > > FreeBSD os you want to chop into linux and make it so any sweaty wife
> > > beating greaseball can run a "Server"
> >
> > Enough already. Take this nonsense off list if you want to have a
> > bitchfest. There's enough mail that comes through here without having
> > to scrape through this garbage too.
> >
> > - jim
> >
> > --
> > jim mock <mij@soupnazi.org> jim@FreeBSD.org
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
>
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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>
>> end of "Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed" from John-David Childs <<
--
"Oh good, my dog found the chainsaw."
-Lilo, "Lilo & Stitch"
Adam Weinberger
adam@vectors.cx
http://vectors.cx
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