Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:05:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Neal E. Westfall" <nwestfal@directvinternet.com> To: Joshua Lee <yid@softhome.net> Cc: dave@jetcafe.org, <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, <chat@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Why did evolution fail? Message-ID: <20020904205814.U38687-100000@Tolstoy.home.lan> In-Reply-To: <20020904232446.0b55b1d5.yid@softhome.net>
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On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Joshua Lee wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:41:15 -0700 (PDT)
> "Neal E. Westfall" <nwestfal@directvinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > naturalism as a viable worldview. In fact, if naturalism is false
> > > > its opposite, supernaturalism must be true.
> > > >
> > > > Moreover, not just any supernaturalism will do. It must provide
> > > > the preconditions for rationality, ethics, science, human dignity,
> > > > freedom, intellectual disagreements, etc.
> > >
> > > Exactly. Judaism. What, that wasn't the religion you had in mind?
> > > ;-)
> >
> > Which is why I said that not just any supernaturalism will do. Old
> > Testament Judaism is an aborted version of Christianity.
>
> Funny, I don't think the "OT" seemed to indicate that one is supposed to
> junk it at some point in the future in favor of worshiping the messiah.
Neither do I. But to reject everything that the OT pointed forward
to is just as bad. I have a higher regard for the "OT" than you
seem to assume.
> > It is alsod
> > no longer practiced today. If you were to propose what we now call
> > Orthodox Judaism, I would have some very pointed questions regarding
> > specific practices that occurred in the Old Testament. Orthodox
> > Judaism repudiates the need for blood atonement and redemption, which
> > means man can never know if he is in a right relationship with God.
>
> Orthodox Judaism does not repudiate the superiority of the Temple as a
> vehicle for inner repentance; we (I am an Orthodox Jew) pray every day
> for the Temple's restoration because of that.
What you have failed to realize is that Christ is the true temple
of which the physical temple was only a shadow. This is the same
error the pharisees made when they mistakenly thought that Jesus
was talking about the literal temple in John 2:19-22. How can a
temple built with human hands make atonement for sin?
> However, we do repudiate
> the idea that this is the only method of repentance or that it conveys
> repentance in some sort of automated fashion; may I suggest that you
> read Isaiah chapter I, Samuels after-death speach to King Saul
> ("obedience not sacrifices"), Hoseah's "sacrifices of the lips", and
> many other passages in the prophets against that view.
Since you mention Isaiah chapter 1, who is being referred to in verse
4? Who is the "Holy One" of Israel that the people of Israel have
despised? Why does God say in verse 11, "I have had enough of burnt
offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in
the blood of bulls, lambs or goats"? What then *was* the purpose of
the temple sacrifices back in Leviticus? Were they not to teach the
Iraelites that without the shedding of blood, there can be no
remission of sins? (See Hebrews 9:22) Why does John the baptist
refer to Jesus as "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the
world"? (John 1:29)
Moreover who is being referred to in the suffering servant passages
in Isaiah 53? Who is the seed of the woman being referred to in
Genesis 3:15 when God addresses the serpent and says, "He shall bruise
you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."?
> > Moreover, whether or not you agree that the particular religion I
> > propose is the One True Way,
>
> My religion is not the One True Way for non-Jews. (Hence the wink.)
> The righteous of the gentiles have a portion in the World to Come. I
> have no inepitus for forcing my beliefs down other's throats; such as
> the belief that god will torture for eternity anyone that isn't my
> religion.
So why are you attacking what my religion teaches? Aren't you just
being a little bit hypocritical? Do you think that Christians just
made up the doctrine of hell? Where do you think it came from? Did
it not come from the lips of Christ himself, who claimed to be your
Messiah? And how does talking about religious doctrines amount to
"forcing my beliefs down other's throats"? Nobody is being compelled
here to accept my beliefs. Aren't you just trying to silence what
you don't agree with?
> > naturalism is still refuted, so the
> > objection you raise really doesn't help you much as a naturalist.
>
> Well, I'm not a naturalist I suppose; or even an evolutionist, but
> that doesn't mean that I go on a crusade in a FreeBSD forum because
> messages have "evolution" in the subject line. If I was to take this
> sort of thing so millitantly I wouldn't be using an OS with a daemon
> as a logo.
Please accept my apologies for assuming you were a naturalist. But
why is it that you find my posts so offensive in a public forum that
was expressly created for off-topic posts? And why do you deem my
views to be "militant"? You sir certainly seem to be engaging in a
"crusade" to silence what you disagree with.
> > If you would like to seriously propose some other religion, we can
> > talk about that.
>
> I'd prefer not to. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Generally, I've found that if you don't want to be part of a
conversation, it's best not to implicate yourself into it in
the first place.
> > > The problem with these sorts of philosophical conjectures is that
> > > if, despite Kant's objections, they could be proven; they rarely
> > > prove any particular religion's cogence.
> >
> > A particular religion's cogence must be analyzed from an internal
> > perspective for coherence.
>
> Tertullian was at least honest when he said "credo quia absurdum est".
In your humble opinion.
>
> > > Somehow I knew that since the subject line contained the word
> > > "evolution" that the missionaries would come out of the woodwork.
> >
> > Or as Terry would put it, it is an "emergent" property. 8-)
>
> If you admit without any intelectual shame that you react in such a
> fashion to the word "evolution" I won't argue.
I guess some people just have no sense of humor. 8-)
Regards,
Neal
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