From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sat Sep 19 20:44:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF06D3EED44 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 20:44:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rollingbits@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bv2kt3s96z4Tfw; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 20:44:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rollingbits@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id n133so10646068qkn.11; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 13:44:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=OuA4rtpccoHTd4R9CWlZYf1FtfifdK5RVrkSXpVgwTM=; b=A4LecMCcS6aPRN1l5UI26DXM58TqlK9a32z7mHg7ZVdvuGzqncobzs0uvJ2dPZHNMH lenrSN2ltn3qYzawVN8B/m6guQTQdJNWIBSZBzYXLv9jORpQuzbXGxnAqXSDelbBy8r3 r8oiMxiyqwPfzj708e6Kr/yfrUmV8qjcs0QHTSvrW76csqsS1nOXTbLNljDUqCXM39Af 7xB0r6SdWfu/A5YA1vu+4/pNdn2wPNIrb1oexePuV1tsZXQCUkVXUcFtxD01EQKSFi8v BshR/vBApivQ93b3Xt00t58pYPqgdZZ+qYKaQ/Dy7gkddWm17bugZwQxqkVPLJi4EvXs QzcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531alRLmhNQI246+btkyLMzLAP3KFOcmlodUyR5GYlr3561UeZQS gDQwGhu2WOxNiBpJbyGN/R5+N+70z+Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyMsJuMnahiD0T19lle4y0Y5vWG94njCPjrw2/y7+dxuMxy24pIHJ5LgOybmtGgAaUs6qMh1Q== X-Received: by 2002:a37:aca:: with SMTP id 193mr40331352qkk.149.1600548293353; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 13:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([2804:389:2012:1ad:c81:ed07:9f29:faf9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l26sm5024154qki.62.2020.09.19.13.44.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 19 Sep 2020 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?Q?Lucas_Nali_de_Magalh=C3=A3es?= Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Plans for git Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2020 17:44:50 -0300 Message-Id: References: Cc: Chris , Kristof Provost , FreeBSD Current In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18A373) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bv2kt3s96z4Tfw X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.78 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[7]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.871]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; R_MIXED_CHARSET(0.62)[subject]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.038]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::736:from]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[FreeBSD-current] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2020 20:44:55 -0000 Just My 2=C2=A2=E2=80=A6=20 > On Sep 3, 2020, at 5:19 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 1:32 PM Chris wro= te: >=20 >>> On 2020-09-03 11:33, Kristof Provost wrote: >>> On 3 Sep 2020, at 19:56, Chris wrote: >>>> Why was the intention to switch NOT announced as such MUCH sooner? >>>>=20 >>> There was discussion about a possible switch to git on the freebsd-git >>> mailing >>> list as early as February 2017: >>>=20 >> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-git/2017-February/000092.html= >>>=20 >>> Ed gave a talk about FreeBSD and git back in 2018: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DG8wQ88d85s4 >>>=20 >>> The Git Transition Working group was mentioned in the quarterly status >>> reports a >>> year ago: >> https://www.freebsd.org/news/status/report-2019-07-2019-09.html >>> and >>> https://www.freebsd.org/news/status/report-2019-04-2019-06.html >> It appears to me that the references you make here all allude to >> _investigation_ >> of a _possibility_ as opposed to a _likelihood_, or an _inevitable_. >> IMHO a change as significant as this, which will require tossing years of= >> tooling >> out the window, and an untold amount of _re_tooling. Should have created a= n >> announcement at _least_ as significant as a new release gets on the maili= ng >> lists. >>=20 >=20 > Yes. We've been working on this for years. We've been working on the > retooling in earnest for the last 6 months. We didn't make an announcement= > because we wanted to have most of the pieces in place before we did that. > We've been doing the multi-year process for multiple years now. I'll also > point out that only the 'git' people showed. A number of other ideas were > suggested, but nothing else was stood up in a serious way (hg came the > closest to setting up an exporter). Since there was really no alternatives= > being proposed to git, the process was less visible than if we'd had to > have had a hg vs git bake off. One step has lead to the next, with much > status reporting done for years. >=20 > Subversion, btw, is not viable in the long run. The Apache foundation has > moved all its projects from svn to git. The velocity of features with svn > has diminished, and the number of CI/CT/etc tool sets that supported svn > well has been dropping over time. It's also been identified as a barrier t= o > entry for the project. Sure, some people climb the learning curve to learn= > and understand it, but our survey data has shown that for every one that > did take the time, many others did not and simply didn't contribute. >=20 > All of these issues have been discussed at length at conferences for the > last 5 years at least, with increasing levels of sophistication. Had there= > been a BSDcan this year, I'd hoped to do a talk / BOF on this to help > socialize the ideas and to get people's feedback in real time (rather than= > the slow and difficult process of getting it just in email). >=20 > We've also talked about this in the BSD office hours and core election > forums over the past year. >=20 > We've been rolling out the beta git repo now for 3 months. People have > found issues and we've been correcting them. We've heard from people that > their automated tooling needs a bit of transition time, so we'll be > exporting the stable/11 and stable/12 branches back into subversion (and > the release branches) after the conversion for the life of those > branches, though we don't plan on doing it for the current nor stable/13 > branches (due to the inefficiencies of git-svn, we need separate trees for= > each, and each tree takes over a day to setup). We know we need some bette= r > docs (we have some decent preliminary ones, but there's some missing bits > in them, and they are too long for more casual users). We need to spell ou= t > different commit policies, how we're going to have to shift our "MFC" > terminology because that's very CVS/SVN centric (in git a merge means a > more specific thing than it does in svn. A cherry-pick in git is also > called a merge in svn, for example). We need to document to the developers= > how to make the shift (this doc is mostly complete and was posted earlier,= > though it could use some TLC). We'd hoped to have the documents done, the > policies written and vetted and have a good test system before making an > announcement. The last thing I wanted was to make a big announcement, only= > to fail to deliver. And since each step of the process followed naturally,= > there wasn't a clear A/B decision point where an announcement could have > been generated. We were getting close to publishing the final schedule whe= n > this thread popped up, though, since it is finally feeling like it will be= > real soon. I also had hoped to refine things so that existing developers > and users would have only minor disruption at the cut over because things > were well documented. >=20 > And once we have all the basics of phase 1 (which is just going to be 'do > FreeBSD's current workflow in git, making minimal changes initially), we'l= l > start on the refinements to the workflow that will help improve the qualit= y > of code, make it easier to integrate changes, etc. There's quite the > diversity of views and opinions in the larger open source world on what > best practices are here, with different projects doing different things. I= t > will take some time for the project to adopt these new tools, new work > flows and realize that in some cases a diversity of tools can be an > advantage rather than a liability. This may be especially true as the need= s > of the ports tree differ from the needs of the src tree and what's optimal= > for one may not work too well for the other. >=20 > So a lot of my reaction in the past few days has been frustration that thi= s > came up about a week before we had all our ducks in a row to talk about it= > effectively and talk about the transition plans. I apologize for being so > snarky about it. The thing that bugs me most is the fact that this all happened and was done w= ithout bringing public attention until recently. It wasn't the fragility of t= he argumentations nor the feeling that we are now following the group. Many o= f the initiatives that didn't went forward and have been removed I evaluated= as a positive point in the project, even. I saw many projects and ideas die= due to bad management and lack of action, not for the kind of argumentation= presented. --=20 rollingbits =E2=80=94 =F0=9F=93=A7 rollingbits@gmail.com =F0=9F=93=A7 rollin= gbits@terra.com.br =F0=9F=93=A7 rollingbits@yahoo.com =F0=9F=93=A7 rollingbi= ts@globo.com =F0=9F=93=A7 rollingbits@icloud.com