From nobody Fri Aug 1 14:22:18 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bwfDZ1zdcz646JP; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 14:33:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bwfDZ0Zn8z3dFT; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 14:33:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754317998; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Z8+sy9pc/pddbvcDmFcwNCKz4ydQPwWt5manOlWGoOM=; b=TmK/0/6LEoy7D5oUFlLsbovm1EBkh5qh3FEHiALB7tzmCw208WRKCBzUvxI7DZlMt4RihE J+FhLeOOwLLL4sSD2a8YSqeoY4j1eX7Bw0MX9DU7LYyR3/DgUY5bK2g9p5Qypa2tCYHNGH pP4Cs51dANLdixPZ7IoauqVtXi5T1hlE6OdxqOVGTsiGUEBvsOhzzYLqHas5BvdUQ7ygyl ZU3Apb9BNGCfjMwSLLj6ajBN+s9prOWW96/856FihECvogVQXSmn7dfgy7O5xhNFocB/dk X1aB/dFeaKJztggUTQUx+DlyzQnLYM/qS5WHN/bn9mp7Hbuwp0gbD3MQ8zlYEw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754317998; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Z8+sy9pc/pddbvcDmFcwNCKz4ydQPwWt5manOlWGoOM=; b=kfMLLFXjQxaP4Q3LWL7XrIcuGx4GDdkYfkPrkc7HvJlWVLSv37M9IuPDU3AYzBlZ3gtwdH hH0uoOmFZPmASNQhECh1Lvmb4tMwG07Utdcf0m7zn6Zpy0lnA/ZnY7RNjwrwhabzuWMy2/ TdTQbEq30gS3x1kgMYyjhs8pfvGpDfv9NHlB2e793oVZlhsk+BMukd4qNul2vSvh/7vWZK mr1zDY2R5fnL3L65MxIlR6UdYoIDIkqeCwGryHq1yxTM6T6gYu0iJnOAwHs69SJ0GVKmsy oNoMXF1E2BIcv1JPMWD41hZ+llkwFFNMNtn+xxxhBS1oZJNFT7VS6WqmR3hdtQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754317998; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=xDdEGttE35K8zbJwzxbl3mJ7XINiGhEvzrbhQDZnI/p3FMqcS+D4R76MoF4Y3hhZxYz412 e33f/2c7HnAhHJnNybCGgVuMSY3NiDxea6vvGU6eea1QQw6uCTCWiprokDTZj+qZaxUB5M /DDRuJO8033LIHBfMRY2JvhCamEcT/2FMO2PLndQ/Iv6yOcaVrS1+DIezYzITTzaZjGrXU OObEtLy4ubA0p7idqTgK9k0YG44KcVh13hpbF36pGUxbYGNJt1vhLENxfg8nX2nGCdWQCM s/0nx7/b/XxE3ZbonXQuvLvAkHql/rr1Ef880FXQEn+pmxg5up3dLma3XnHVMQ== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bwfDY6hJ5zBbb; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 14:33:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A096D138E4; Fri, 01 Aug 2025 15:22:34 +0100 (BST) From: David Chisnall Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D5667ED-63EA-434D-AC2A-443557F0C968" List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 15:22:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: vermaden , Shawn Webb , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , pete@nomadlogic.org, bapt@freebsd.org, bane@pmf.uns.ac.rs To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1) --Apple-Mail=_9D5667ED-63EA-434D-AC2A-443557F0C968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 31 Jul 2025, at 02:57, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: >=20 > I would also like to separate it. Use one command to update (upgrade) = 3rd party packages and another to update (upgrade) base packages. It is = our workflow for the last 25+ years thus running one command to update = both is really unexpected and unwanted. I disagree here. If you *want* to separate them, then you can: you can = specify the repository that you want to upgrade explicitly. But if you = do then you risk things like: - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded my base system, but not my ports-kmods things, = so now my GUI doesn=E2=80=99t start. - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded ports, but the ports tree is built on a newer = point release and I need to upgrade to make some symbols exist. - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded the base system and now some kmods from ports = don=E2=80=99t work. All of these are things that users have complained about publicly in the = last year or so. =20 I have avoided them by always doing `freebsd-update install && pkg = upgrade` and keeping that in my shell history[1] so I don=E2=80=99t = accidentally forget to upgrade both together. Given a choice between a thing that works for users, or something that = *can* work for users but comes with a bunch of footguns that they need = to avoid, I=E2=80=99d pick the former. David [1] I=E2=80=99ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no longer = has working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, if = people want to complain about something.= --Apple-Mail=_9D5667ED-63EA-434D-AC2A-443557F0C968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On 31 Jul = 2025, at 02:57, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> = wrote:

I would also like to separate it. Use one = command to update (upgrade) 3rd party packages and another to update = (upgrade) base packages. It is our workflow for the last 25+ years thus = running one command to update both is really unexpected and = unwanted.

I disagree = here.  If you *want* to separate them, then you can: you can = specify the repository that you want to upgrade explicitly.  But if = you do then you risk things like:

 - = I=E2=80=99ve upgraded my base system, but not my ports-kmods things, so = now my GUI doesn=E2=80=99t start.
 - I=E2=80=99ve = upgraded ports, but the ports tree is built on a newer point release and = I need to upgrade to make some symbols exist.
 - I=E2=80=99= ve upgraded the base system and now some kmods from ports don=E2=80=99t = work.

All of these are things that users have = complained about publicly in the last year or so. =  

I have avoided them by always doing = `freebsd-update install && pkg upgrade` and keeping that in my = shell history[1] so I don=E2=80=99t accidentally forget to upgrade both = together.

Given a choice between a thing that = works for users, or something that *can* work for users but comes with a = bunch of footguns that they need to avoid, I=E2=80=99d pick the = former.

David

[1] = I=E2=80=99ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no longer has = working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, if people = want to complain about something.
= --Apple-Mail=_9D5667ED-63EA-434D-AC2A-443557F0C968--