From nobody Mon Aug 5 22:49:42 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdBTX3TfSz5SrP3 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:49:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdBTX0djWz4GYH for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 22:49:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (123-1-21-232.area1b.commufa.jp [123.1.21.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 475MngQU014069; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 07:49:42 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1722898185; bh=uv4RsKmfpl5DCRwBg3X4C76u3u+lOn27L0PpBRxg8KI=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=AKYy7WCvpgSmgS3yR3nxNXdLRIZTmHrEwZuhHPW8+XtWCUONC35nnA7h+pFjvk9J1 AwR9/9nkicWA6ha0tsaoZw2yNUqBkT+mIiZpX54mAbxRUsN/6vFXB4OO2eeNPErxJn VNLPbQvSFvnSM0QpBPuuNKQBaAe4Kh3CwPnkadew= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 07:49:42 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Warner Losh Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , FreeBSD Hackers , Bakul Shah Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-Id: <20240806074942.a8ef6b35a06ca0638e672327@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.1) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdBTX0djWz4GYH On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600 Warner Losh wrote: > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29 PM Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 > > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27 PM Poul-Henning Kamp > > wrote: > > > > > > > -------- > > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > > > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah > > > > wrote: > > > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > > > > .. > > > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; picking > > up \ > > > > > |phone reading this thread. > > > > > | > > > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 > > years \ > > > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and put > > some > > > > \ > > > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo lists to > > \ > > > > > > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > > > > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, though... > > > > > > Warner > > > > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > > deleted. :-) > > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > > complains about loader.lua. > > > > The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loader is > its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when bearssl > and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage. > > But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing > notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that. Exactly. I once thought why? But never seen (at least by default) something written in Forth for base, other than loader. Maybe it would be when firmwares shipped for first hand users stop shipping CSM that Forth is removed from base, ealiest. > > Warner > > -- > > Tomoaki AOKI > > -- Tomoaki AOKI