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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d2370c76b5435d090af4eadb256e9bf7; Mon, 24 Jul 2023 20:59:17 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.600.7\)) Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:59:05 -0700 Cc: Warner Losh To: John Baldwin , freebsd-arch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.600.7) References: X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.44 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.986]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.956]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.69.31:from]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.69.31:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4R8swV52lSz3myL X-Spamd-Bar: --- John Baldwin wrote on Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 19:33:57 UTC : > On 5/23/23 4:46 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: > >> For 13.0, i386 was demoted from Tier 1 to Tier 2. In the = announcement > >> of this for 13.0, the project committed to an update on i386's = future > >> around the time of 14.0. The announcement at the time suggested = that > >> i386 would be supported less in 14.x than in 13.x. > >> > >> My proposal is that for 14.x we treat i386 like any other Tier 2 > >> platform. That is, release images and packages would only be = provided > >> on a best-effort basis, and we would not guarantee providing them. = I > >> think we should also stop shipping binary updates for the base = system > >> (freebsd-update) for 14.x for i386. > >> > >> A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving = forward. > >> My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say publicly > >> that we anticipate not supporting them in 15. That is, that we may > >> remove them outright from the tree, or we may leave them in the = tree, > >> but we do not plan on building packages or release images. Another > >> option to consider for 32-bit platforms perhaps in 15 is to remove > >> kernel support and only retain the ability to build userland. The > >> goal of saying this now-ish (or about the time 14.0 is going to = ship) > >> would be to give time for users and developers to respond in the > >> window between 14.0 and 15.0 so we can evaluate those responses as = an > >> input into the final decision for 15. > >=20 > > We discussed this topic during the 15.0 developer summit and the = consensus > > among the folks present (which is only a subset of our community), = is > > that there is still interest in supporting armv7 kernels in 15.0, = but not > > kernels for other platforms. In addition, no one expressed a need = for > > full 32-bit world support for i386 and powerpc, only for compat32 = support > > in the kernel, and lib32 (cc -m32) support in userland. > >=20 > > One question for this is if we think we will have sufficient = developer > > resources to maintain armv7 kernels for the life of stable/15. We = can > > largely punt on the final decision for that until close to the = release of > > 15.0. I think for what we announce for 14.0 we can still say that we > > are generally planning to remove 32-bit kernel and world support in = 15.0, > > but may consider keeping armv7. >=20 > I've posted a couple of reviews to add a WARNING to dmesg during the = boot > of 32-bit kernels as well as to add a note to RELNOTES to serve as the > starting point for the note in the release notes: >=20 > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41163 > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41164 >=20 > Also, Mike Karels has been working on lib32 support for aarch64 that = should > be included in 14.0. I see no wording about armv6 being removed earlier. At one time Warner had written: >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 11:48 AM Mark Millard = wrote: >> FYI: The old 2021-Oct-28 message related to armv6 removal >> sequencing/timing has a new follow up finally: >>=20 >> = https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch/2022-December/000313.html >>=20 >> (Nothing about this changes the armv7 status.) >=20 > Nope. >=20 > tl;dr: armv6 packages will stop, we'll stop doing -current armv6 = snapshots, we'll move armv6 to > an 'extra' architecture in universe for stable/14. post stable/14 = we'll tear down support for armv6 > in base and later in ports. Ports mention armv6 ~500 times, maybe 1/4 = of them also mention armv7, > and the vast majority of them mark things as broken in some way = (though there are exceptions). >=20 > Warner =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com