Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 18:15:26 -0700 From: Mike Smith <msmith@freebsd.org> To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Mike Smith <msmith@freebsd.org>, Matt Dillon <dillon@earth.backplane.com>, Kazutaka YOKOTA <yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp>, Sean Kelly <smkelly@zombie.org>, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Message-ID: <200108120115.f7C1FQb04036@mass.dis.org> In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:44:47 PDT." <3B75D17F.1EE4C602@mindspring.com>
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> > "should", eh? And in the next breath, you'll switch to your other tune,
> > which is that FreeBSD should "do it right".
> >
> > The two simply aren't compatible.
>
> Says you.
I have demonstrated cases where they aren't. You're arguing about one
right now...
> > In addition, we don't have the resources to do this.
>
> I wonder why that is?
Because people would prefer to argue about it rather than just do the
work. Case in point. See Joe Kelsey's followup to this message.
> > Note that I have a selection of rotary-switch KVMs here; they all work
> > with FreeBSD. They sure as shit don't emulate a keyboard controller.
>
> Which, as with my QVM switch, I am sure you compensate for,
> either by switching the machine active when rebooting (not an
> option in a colocation facility), or by purchasing above-average
> motherboards, the list of which you have not lowered yourself to
> share with the rest of us.
Neither. Of the twelve systems connected to these switches here, one
only cannot be told to boot irregardless of the presence of a keyboard.
They represent a wide selection of average or below-average motherboards;
I wouldn't consider any of them anything particularly out of the ordinary.
> > > To put it another way: it is the _job_ of software to make up
> > > for bad hardware design.
> >
> > Yes. To a point. Beyond that point, well shit, you just can't use that
> > hardware.
>
> Then you and I simply draw the line at a differnt place: I draw
> it at being able to use Tyan Tiger and Supra Micro motherboards,
> with Belkin switches -- all commodity hardware -- without problems,
> and you draw it elsewhere.
Whether an item is a "commodity" item or not doesn't really factor into
the equation, other than that it may mean that there are more people with
a desire to do something useful about the problem.
> > The big difference here is that you get an opportunity to address these
> > software deficiencies yourself. I for one would be delighted if you
> > actually *did* occasionally, rather than just puling about it.
>
> And I would be delighted if you'd commit my damn patches, instead
> of saying "well, this patch is unnecessary, since it works on the
> hardware I buy: you should just buy better hardware, like me".
I haven't seen any patches from you.
> > *snort* Now, you are going to tell me what this BIOS function is,
> > aren't you? Come on. Look it up. Then go test it on a few systems, and s
> ee
> > whether it tells you that there's a keyboard there.
>
> I believe that if you lookes at *MIKE SMITH'S* code in the boot
> loader, you would be able to find it...
I would? Care to actually look at it?
If you're referring to the keyboard probe in the vidconsole driver,
you'll note that a) it's commented out, b) it doesn't use the BIOS, and
c) Kazu wrote it.
> > Then go read the commit message where we pulled -P as the default for
> > boot2.
>
> I've never used it as the default option, but I've sure as heck
> put it in machines /boot.config since it was yanked.
Yeah. And someday you'll put it on a machine and then bitch when you get
a serial console unexpectedly, because BIOS vendors have stopped setting
the "Extended keyboard" bit. Like I said, read the commit message.
> > And if you have any bright ideas that are substantiated by
> > reality, I'm sure we'd be happy to listen.
>
> Read the Linux and Widnows drivers source code, for a start;
I have, at least for the latter.
> you do have a copy of "Sourcer" from V Communications, don't
> you?
Can you say "Dmitri Skylarov"? Thankyou, but no.
> I will do the same thing for the first 10 people in Germany
> or another country that allows reverse engineering for
> purposes of documenting interface definitions, provided they
> promise to write FreeBSD drivers for the hardware. It will
> be a couple of thousand dollars well spent.
The nature of the problem is already well understood; this would neither
be nessary nor particularly useful.
You'd be better off spending the time understanding the issues and
talking with our active and thoughtful keyboard/mouse driver maintainer.
> Make it work with my Belkin in the lab with a 1.6 firmware, and
> with the ethernet Belkin in the labe (both of which work with
> both Windows and Linux), and you will have a convert to the Church
> Of Mike.
Put the ROMs in the right way around, to start with. 8)
Then talk to Kazu.
--
... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his
rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want
to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force
people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt]
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