Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 19:22:04 +0200 From: Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@freebsd.org>, Warner Losh <imp@freebsd.org>, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Updating reboot's default Message-ID: <59503878-4DF2-49B7-AF40-A3AA506889DA@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfoMTVCMdG7Gy_x0W=-YFr1rz4-uH9nfutDb3AdALWA8Rg@mail.gmail.com> References: <CANCZdfoMTVCMdG7Gy_x0W=-YFr1rz4-uH9nfutDb3AdALWA8Rg@mail.gmail.com>
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--Apple-Mail-F8A4AB9A-15A8-449D-BA70-5050D931D38D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 22. Jun 2022, at 19:12, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >=20 >> On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 1:03 AM Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> wrote= : >>=20 >>=20 >>>> On 22. Jun 2022, at 04:03, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: >>>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 6:35 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@freebsd.org> wr= ote: >>>> On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 8:01:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >>>> > 15 or 20 years ago, we talked about changing the default for reboot f= rom >>>> > 'right now' to being safe shutdown. There were arguments made against= it >>>> > due to tiny appliances and such. >>>> > >>>> > Time has past, and this oddity has persisted. It's time to revisit th= at >>>> > decision. >>>> > >>>> > I'd propose that we keep 'fastboot' and 'fasthalt' having the immedia= te >>>> > behavior. However, the 'reboot' command will switch from '-q' behavio= r to >>>> > '-r' behavior. >>>>=20 >>>> Somehow I hear this echo "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". My >>>> understanding has always been that shutdown(8) is the program that >>>> shuts down and maybe reboots the system, while reboot(8) is a quick >>>> and dirty way to reboot the system, along with halt(8) if you don't >>>> want to reboot. >>>>=20 >>>> So why change this? At the very least you'll confuse people who want >>>> to use the old method. My guess is that you have some reason that's >>>> not immediately apparent, but what? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Other systems have the behavior I'm advocating. We are the odd duck. Thi= s means we tend to violate POLA here. And there is no good reason to do this= when fastboot is available. Nobody that advocated to keep this difference a= s useful the last time it came up still wants to advocate. Most people find t= he behavior annoying and only a vanishingly small minority of people like it= . In fact, so far nobody has even asked to please not, let alone come up wit= h a good reason to retain this behavior. So, I'm polling arch@ to see if any= one like that shows up. >>>=20 >>=20 >> Well, to be honest, I=E2=80=99m used to the current behavior and would pr= efer to keep it (POLA for existing users). I didn=E2=80=99t answer to advoca= te against the change as >>=20 >> 1. I have no metric to counter your argument that this is a real problem f= or people used to other OSes (neither how many people pick up FreeBSD in gen= eral nor how many are unpleasantly surprised by how `reboot` works) >> 2. I will certainly be able to adapt and get used to the new behavior >> 3. Given the amount of change in the world right now, it=E2=80=99s a =E2=80= =9Cpick your battles=E2=80=9D situation. There is and will be so much to suc= k up, arguing about this with someone who clearly put some thought into it s= eems like a waste of everybody=E2=80=99s time. >=20 > I posted so I could understand other views, so I'd like to ask some questi= ons if I may. >=20 > Is your reliance on the current default due to shell and similar scripts y= ou have? Or is it due to your interactive operations? Interactive operation, my playbooks/automation use clean reboot (shutdown -r= ). > What do you like about the current behavior: How quickly the reboot happen= s? Or you have a lot of running processes you don't want killed or to have a= chance to clean up? Both > What build process do you use to create your FreeBSD images? Images from t= he RE, buildworld, nanobsd, poudriere, etc... >=20 Official release & buildworld & poudriere & packer > The only thought I've put into this is from my perspective, and while it i= s often a good reflection of the larger community, there are times there's a= mismatch, so I'd like to at least understand why you hold these views. Ther= e may be a simple way to accommodate both sides. >=20 For me this is almost solely about muscle memory. If changing it serves the m= any, I can adapt and start using `fastboot` again (which I used for many yea= rs, until I realized that `reboot` did exactly the same) If we were redoing things from scratch, what you propose would make more sen= se than the current behavior for sure. Cheers Michael > Warner > =20 >> Cheers >> Michael >>=20 >>> Warner=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> And no, I don't really have an axe to grind in this matter. >>>>=20 >>>> Greg >>>> -- >>>> Sent from my desktop computer. >>>> See complete headers for address and phone numbers. >>>> This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program >>>> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php --Apple-Mail-F8A4AB9A-15A8-449D-BA70-5050D931D38D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br= ></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 22. Jun 2022, at 19= :12, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><bl= ockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D= "ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma= il_attr">On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 1:03 AM Michael Gmelin <<a href=3D"mailt= o:grembo@freebsd.org">grembo@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote= class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol= id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></d= iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"= >On 22. Jun 2022, at 04:03, Warner Losh <<a href=3D"mailto:imp@bsdimp.com= " target=3D"_blank">imp@bsdimp.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div>= <blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"auto"><div><= br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On T= ue, Jun 21, 2022, 6:35 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <<a href=3D"mailto:grog@fre= ebsd.org" target=3D"_blank">grog@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockq= uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px= solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 8= :01:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:<br> > 15 or 20 years ago, we talked about changing the default for reboot fro= m<br> > 'right now' to being safe shutdown. There were arguments made against i= t<br> > due to tiny appliances and such.<br> ><br> > Time has past, and this oddity has persisted. It's time to revisit that= <br> > decision.<br> ><br> > I'd propose that we keep 'fastboot' and 'fasthalt' having the immediate= <br> > behavior. However, the 'reboot' command will switch from '-q' behavior t= o<br> > '-r' behavior.<br> <br> Somehow I hear this echo "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". My<br> understanding has always been that shutdown(8) is the program that<br> shuts down and maybe reboots the system, while reboot(8) is a quick<br> and dirty way to reboot the system, along with halt(8) if you don't<br> want to reboot.<br> <br> So why change this? At the very least you'll confuse people who want<b= r> to use the old method. My guess is that you have some reason that's<br= > not immediately apparent, but what?<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"= auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Other systems have the behavior I'm advoca= ting. We are the odd duck. This means we tend to violate POLA here. And ther= e is no good reason to do this when fastboot is available. Nobody that advoc= ated to keep this difference as useful the last time it came up still wants t= o advocate. Most people find the behavior annoying and only a vanishingly sm= all minority of people like it. In fact, so far nobody has even asked to ple= ase not, let alone come up with a good reason to retain this behavior. So, I= 'm polling arch@ to see if anyone like that shows up.</div><div dir=3D"auto"= ><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, to be honest, I= =E2=80=99m used to the current behavior and would prefer to keep it (POLA fo= r existing users). I didn=E2=80=99t answer to advocate against the change as= </div><div><br></div><div>1. I have no metric to counter your argument that t= his is a real problem for people used to other OSes (neither how many people= pick up FreeBSD in general nor how many are unpleasantly surprised by how `= reboot` works)</div><div>2. I will certainly be able to adapt and get used t= o the new behavior</div><div>3. Given the amount of change in the world righ= t now, it=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cpick your battles=E2=80=9D situation. There i= s and will be so much to suck up, arguing about this with someone who clearl= y put some thought into it seems like a waste of everybody=E2=80=99s time.</= div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I posted so I could understand ot= her views, so I'd like to ask some questions if I may.</div><div><br></div><= div>Is your reliance on the current default due to shell and similar scripts= you have? Or is it due to your interactive operations?</div></div></div></d= iv></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Interactive operation, my playbooks/auto= mation use clean reboot (shutdown -r).</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote t= ype=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d= iv>What do you like about the current behavior: How quickly the reboot happe= ns? Or you have a lot of running processes you don't want killed or to have a= chance to clean up?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div= >Both</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di= r=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>What build process do you use to c= reate your FreeBSD images? Images from the RE, buildworld, nanobsd, poudrier= e, etc...</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>= <div>Official release & buildworld & poudriere & packer</div><di= v><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">= <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>The only thought I've put into this is from m= y perspective, and while it is often a good reflection of the larger communi= ty, there are times there's a mismatch, so I'd like to at least understand w= hy you hold these views. There may be a simple way to accommodate both s= ides.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div= >For me this is almost solely about muscle memory. If changing it serves the= many, I can adapt and start using `fastboot` again (which I used for many y= ears, until I realized that `reboot` did exactly the same)</div><div><br></d= iv><div>If we were redoing things from scratch, what you propose would make m= ore sense than the current behavior for sure.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheer= s</div><div>Michael</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div d= ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Warner<br></div>= <div> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0= px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D= "auto"><div>Cheers</div><div>Michael</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div= dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">Warner </div><div dir=3D= "auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D= "gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0= .8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> And no, I don't really have an axe to grind in this matter.<br> <br> Greg<br> --<br> Sent from my desktop computer.<br> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.<br> This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program<br> reports problems, please read <a href=3D"http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php" re= l=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.ph= p</a><br> </blockquote></div></div></div> </div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div> </div></blockquote></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-F8A4AB9A-15A8-449D-BA70-5050D931D38D--
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