From nobody Sat Jan 13 10:17:12 2024 X-Original-To: dev-commits-ports-all@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TBvTm6XyVz57GXb for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2024 10:17:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel.engberg.lists@pyret.net) Received: from smtp-190e.mail.infomaniak.ch (smtp-190e.mail.infomaniak.ch [185.125.25.14]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "relay.mail.infomaniak.ch", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TBvTm48sDz4qHp for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2024 10:17:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel.engberg.lists@pyret.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from smtp-4-0000.mail.infomaniak.ch (unknown [10.7.10.107]) by smtp-3-3000.mail.infomaniak.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TBvTj2VGTzMqB24; Sat, 13 Jan 2024 10:17:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from unknown by smtp-4-0000.mail.infomaniak.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4TBvTh6675zqcg; Sat, 13 Jan 2024 11:17:12 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=pyret.net; s=20231006; t=1705141033; bh=UPFQB+swciix/CkUvbDYbZnrjzcvVPO0QGKTmnduNZQ=; h=Date:Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=a/wJwKuefbOXKng4Ya7ygP+dG06fpLDoHIL7LvTmCL5Fv16a3P0hu6KqW9A2yVYYJ zZXJtHo2OHIY6DRbq2vJVOvNgZRDUoY4YyeoRvZsRTik7UsmUTx6vK2dOqApLEP2qJ tpyXztRIuB+wQVf5nao+ebEH3xaW7eeULfGxVkgzd1ve2cSSoUnuGf8J2/1/zmhXCx x8Saj4nVaa+ltE8/XpZx3XalA6Gi7Rfg7Qw94eXyDUQgfR2i17F8HAaeJ//4krm5h2 8T3EVwsC6LN7+/WV+maUegW6OPbwyXL1sujxy/d1mFxo/e6RQJcGhuWBFZuGeC0so6 FlfvJh4k4hs1w== Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 11:17:12 +0100 Subject: Re: git: 25e6f68a6661 - main - textproc/libxml2: Update to 2.11.6 From: Daniel Engberg Reply-To: Daniel Engberg To: Gleb Popov Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , Daniel Engberg , ports-committers@freebsd.org, dev-commits-ports-all@freebsd.org, dev-commits-ports-main@freebsd.org List-Id: Commit messages for all branches of the ports repository List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/dev-commits-ports-all List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-dev-commits-ports-all@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: dev-commits-ports-all@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_=_swift_1705141032_55d8067faeef9a6dff31a78e9782a812_=_" X-WS-User-Origin: eyJpdiI6InpMbExLMjQycnZHSzErK2p0dGlyOEE9PSIsInZhbHVlIjoidzZZY0pmSFN4TGJXd1BpL0dGTlFLdz09IiwibWFjIjoiMTU3OGE0M2MzNDE5MDQxMGZiNDQyOTUyMmE3ZmYxNmNmNjY2YWY2YWY1M2JmYmM4YWE5NzhiOTgyMjkwNGYzNyIsInRhZyI6IiJ9 X-WS-User-Mbox: eyJpdiI6InlpRlVaaERJcjhGNlZVSERhU242K3c9PSIsInZhbHVlIjoib1dmYXFzdHhURGhXWklUWDhHc0hNQT09IiwibWFjIjoiNWNiNmMzNGM4ZGU4YWI3OTYxOTJmNWQ2OTU2ZjExOWM2ZTJlYmY3M2NhNWQ0ZjBmYjg5YTg2MzBiY2MzNzlmMSIsInRhZyI6IiJ9 X-WS-Location: eJxzKUpMKykGAAfpAmU- X-Mailer: Infomaniak Workspace (1.3.620) References: <202401121705.40CH5JhG014492@gitrepo.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: X-Infomaniak-Routing: alpha X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TBvTm48sDz4qHp X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29222, ipnet:185.125.24.0/22, country:CH] --_=_swift_1705141032_55d8067faeef9a6dff31a78e9782a812_=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-01-13T09:02:35.000+01:00, Gleb Popov wrote:= >=C2=A0On=C2=A0Sat,=C2=A0Jan=C2=A013,=C2=A02024=C2=A0at=C2=A08:14= =E2=80=AFAM=C2=A0Alexey=C2=A0Dokuchaev=C2=A0=C2=A0wrote:= >>=C2=A0=C2=A0Wait,=C2=A0what?=C2=A0You've=C2=A0just=C2=A0removed=C2= =A0the=C2=A0comment=C2=A0which=C2=A0tells=C2=A0to=C2=A0NOT >>=C2=A0=C2= =A0use=C2=A0the >>=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0dreaded=C2=A0CMake= =C2=A0and=C2=A0made=C2=A0the=C2=A0switch=C2=A0without=C2=A0logging=C2=A0any= =C2=A0rationale? >>=C2=A0=C2=A0CMake >>=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0in=C2=A0such=C2=A0low-sitting=C2=A0in=C2=A0dependency=C2=A0tree=C2= =A0port=C2=A0is=C2=A0a=C2=A0PITA=C2=A0for=C2=A0many >>=C2=A0=C2=A0people,= >>=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0please=C2=A0don't=C2=A0push=C2= =A0it=C2=A0down=C2=A0our=C2=A0throats=C2=A0as=C2=A0you've=C2=A0been=C2= =A0repeatedly >>=C2=A0=C2=A0asked=C2=A0by >>=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0other=C2=A0fellow=C2=A0developers. >>=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0./danfe >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0I=C2=A0admit=C2=A0that=C2=A0there= =C2=A0is=C2=A0no=C2=A0rationale=C2=A0for=C2=A0the=C2=A0switch=C2=A0in=C2= =A0the=C2=A0commit >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0message.=C2=A0But=C2=A0at=C2=A0the= =C2=A0same=C2=A0time,=C2=A0reducing=C2=A0build=C2=A0times=C2=A0for=C2=A0Por= ts >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0consumers=C2=A0has=C2=A0much=C2=A0lower=C2=A0priority= =C2=A0for=C2=A0us=C2=A0than=C2=A0actually=C2=A0updating >=C2=A0 >=C2= =A0software. >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0Daniel=C2=A0made=C2=A0sure=C2=A0that=C2= =A0the=C2=A0switch=C2=A0doesn't=C2=A0cause=C2=A0circular=C2=A0dependencies= >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0which=C2=A0was=C2=A0a=C2=A0problem=C2=A0before.=C2= =A0Because=C2=A0of=C2=A0that=C2=A0I=C2=A0approved=C2=A0the=C2=A0change, >= =C2=A0 >=C2=A0just=C2=A0for=C2=A0the=C2=A0sake=C2=A0of=C2=A0the=C2=A0"upd= ating"=C2=A0part. >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0Daniel=C2=A0is=C2=A0not=C2=A0being= =C2=A0paid=C2=A0for=C2=A0this=C2=A0work,=C2=A0so=C2=A0if=C2=A0he's=C2=A0mor= e=C2=A0comfortable >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0with=C2=A0CMake=C2=A0(which=C2=A0I= =C2=A0wholeheartedly=C2=A0understand!)=C2=A0it=C2=A0is=C2=A0a=C2=A0sufficie= nt >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0rationale=C2=A0for=C2=A0the=C2=A0switch.=C2=A0I=C2= =A0believe=C2=A0no=C2=A0one=C2=A0will=C2=A0be=C2=A0against=C2=A0if=C2=A0you= >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0prepare=C2=A0a=C2=A0patch=C2=A0that=C2=A0will=C2=A0swit= ch=C2=A0back=C2=A0to=C2=A0autotools=C2=A0and=C2=A0do=C2=A0the=C2=A0same >= =C2=A0 >=C2=A0amount=C2=A0of=C2=A0testing=C2=A0(500+=C2=A0ports)=C2=A0tha= t=C2=A0Daniel=C2=A0did. >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=3D=3D=3D >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0arr= owd=C2=A0with=C2=A0a=C2=A0portmgr-lurker=C2=A0hat=C2=A0on=C2=A0top Hi,= I want to add a few things that weren't in the commit message but t= hat's been discussed and mentioned in the bugs report(s) and elsewhere.= Local patches are a pain, no one has upstreamed patches for years and= there's seemingly little to no interest in doing so. For a single comm= itter that might not be much of an issue but it adds a overall maintenanc= e burden and that specific maintainer/committer will not be around foreve= r. As a community we've reported issues upstream, issues have been fixed = and upstreamed patches. This by far a better success story than previousl= y. It isn't perfect but it is in better shape than before and people are = willing to contribute. There are more improvments upstream which be in la= ter releases too. While at it lets address the subject about build tim= es in general on a ports tree level. Does CMake/Meson/* add build ti= me looking at a single port? That depends on how you look at it. If yo= u look at a single port for the build itself it's rarely the case. Build = times are most of the time reduced by quite a bit or at least on par. = XXX pulls in YYY and friends as build dependencies and therefore is "h= eavy" While that is true compared to "zero" dependenvies I think we ca= n safely assume that most systems are likely to use more than 10 ports = or so on a system in general. Given that many projects are or already hav= e migrated to CMake/Meson/* you're very likely to pull these in either wa= y. Looking at the general movement whether you agree or not it's very lik= ely going to be a fruitless effort trying to against it and many projects= have trouble maintaining Autotools scripts. Upstream (Autotools) have al= so mentionend that they're seeing less interest [1] and that seemingly te= nds to trickle down to project using Autotools. Keep in mind that Autotoo= ls isn't free when you need to use USES=3D autoreconf and/or gmake. CMake= /Meson/* usually scale much better on systems utilizing many cores and ma= ny "frameworks" also integrates better with build caches such as devel/cc= ache or devel/sccache if you're looking to further improve build times. A= dditionally there's very likely an overall gain in the end if we embrace = it even without utilizing caches given that builds on single ports bases = are in general at least par or faster [1] and maintences/upstream burden.= 1: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf/2021-01/msg00049.html= 2: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-ports/2023-December/0= 05056.html Best regards, Daniel (diizzy@) --_=_swift_1705141032_55d8067faeef9a6dff31a78e9782a812_=_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 2024-01-13T09:02:35.000+01:00, Gleb Popov <arrowd@freebsd.org>= ; wrote:
On Sat,=
 Jan 13, 2024 at 8:14=E2=80=AFAM Alexey Dokuchaev <danfe@freebsd.org> wrote:<=
br>
 

<=
div> Wait, what?  You've just removed the comment which tells to NOT use th=
e
dreaded CMake and made the switch without logging any rati= onale? CMake
in such low-sitting in dependency tree port is= a PITA for many people,
please don't push it down our throa= ts as you've been repeatedly asked by
other fellow developer= s.

./danfe

I admit that there is no rationale for the switch in the commit
message. But at the same time, reducing build times for Ports
consumers has much lower priority for us than actually updatin= g
software.
Daniel made sure that the switch do= esn't cause circular dependencies
which was a problem before.= Because of that I approved the change,
just for the sake of = the "updating" part.

Daniel is not being paid = for this work, so if he's more comfortable
with CMake (which = I wholeheartedly understand!) it is a sufficient
rationale fo= r the switch. I believe no one will be against if you
prepar= e a patch that will switch back to autotools and do the same
= amount of testing (500+ ports) that Daniel did.

=3D=3D=3D
arrowd with a portmgr-lurker hat on top
=
Hi,

I want to ad= d a few things that weren't in the commit message but that's been discussed= and mentioned in the bugs report(s) and elsewhere.

Local patches are a pain, no one has upstreamed patches for years and= there's seemingly little to no interest in doing so. For a single committe= r that might not be much of an issue but it adds a overall maintenance burd= en and that specific maintainer/committer will not be around forever. As a = community we've reported issues upstream, issues have been fixed and upstre= amed patches. This by far a better success story than previously. It isn't = perfect but it is in better shape than before and people are willing to con= tribute. There are more improvments upstream which be in later releases too= .

While at it lets address the subject about b= uild times in general on a ports tree level.

D= oes CMake/Meson/* add build time looking at a single port?
Th= at depends on how you look at it. If you look at a single port for the buil= d itself it's rarely the case. Build times are most of the time reduced by = quite a bit or at least on par.

XXX pulls in Y= YY and friends as build dependencies and therefore is "heavy"
While that is true compared to "zero" dependenvies I think we can safely a= ssume that most systems are likely to use more than 10 ports or so on a sys= tem in general. Given that many projects are or already have migrated to CM= ake/Meson/* you're very likely to pull these in either way. Looking at the = general movement whether you agree or not it's very likely going to be a fr= uitless effort trying to against it and many projects have trouble maintain= ing Autotools scripts. Upstream (Autotools) have also mentionend that they'= re seeing less interest [1] and that seemingly tends to trickle down to pro= ject using Autotools. Keep in mind that Autotools isn't free when you need = to use USES=3D autoreconf and/or gmake. CMake/Meson/* usually scale much be= tter on systems utilizing many cores and many "frameworks" also integrates = better with build caches such as devel/ccache or devel/sccache if you're lo= oking to further improve build times. Additionally there's very likely an o= verall gain in the end if we embrace it even without utilizing caches given= that builds on single ports bases are in general at least par or faster [1= ] and maintences/upstream burden.

=

Best regards,
Daniel (diizzy@)
--_=_swift_1705141032_55d8067faeef9a6dff31a78e9782a812_=_--