Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 15:14:17 -0700 From: Doug Wellington <doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com> Cc: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, didier@aida.org, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org, doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov Subject: Re: JDK 1.02 Message-ID: <9608242214.AA04621@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> In-Reply-To: "Your message of Sat, 24 Aug 1996 13:08:30 CST." <199608241908.NAA12878@rocky.mt.sri.com>
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Previously: >[ Moved to -chat ] Hmmm, don't know from -chat... And I'm not about to sign up for yet another mail list... >Because standards are 'a good thing'. And, w/out standards we wouldn't >have jobs since our education would be meaningless. What's that ol' line about standards? Something like, "gee, standards are wonderful, there are so many to choose from!" If you're interested in standards, why are you here in UnixLand, home of BSD vs. USL, sockets vs. TLI, etc, etc? I would think that Microsoft has much better control over "standards"... Hmmm, education... Still working on that one... Every time I've tried to take a class at The University of Arizona, I've known more than the teacher... Uh-oh, there's that embarassing ego problem again... (I swore to myself that I wouldn't get my hair cut until I got my bachelor's degree - well, it's down to my butt, and I'm still about three full-time years away from a degree...) >Is it possible that Java is an elegant solution, or is not possible if >it like by the masses. Please define elegant... Recursion is "elegant", it's also a resource hog... I think we have too many elegant solutions already, and we haven't even asked all the questions that those solutions have provided answers to... >> Hmmm... When *I* want portability, I look to Python and TCL... >*YUK* I like neither. ...ummm, when did "like" enter the picture? I don't believe I said I liked ANY of them... If I could design my own language, it would have about four statements: read_designers_mind(); solve_all_designers_problems(); leave_designer_alone_but_pay_him_big_bucks(); allow_designer_to_change_mind_and_get_more_or_less_involved(); I'd "like" that! ;-) ;-) ;-) >What I *disklike* is Sun making it proprietary after touting how open >they were going to be about it. It's the way of the world, baby... (I agree with you though.) >[...] there is *NO* language/API that is consistant across platforms, >although Java is the closest I've seen. [...] Hmmm, do I understand that you want everything exactly the same everywhere? Why not just throw everything else away and just use Macintoshes? Another related question I have is, how much do we really want to change to be the same? Lots of people WANT to have a different interface - they want to be able to take advantage of the things their platform has that others don't... >You and Terry should form the 'I know better than the public' group. HAR! Hey Terry, let's do it! Shall I make a teeshirt? (Hmm, do you think it's just this Tucson heat affecting us?) >The 'Public(tm)' is smarter than you give them credit for. Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the average human... ;-) >My wife is >one of the 'Public(tm)' who you claim is too ignorant to know better ..and...? (Hmmm, just wrote, then deleted, a whole bunch about this - let's leave others out of this, huh? It's just flamebait...) >the fact of the matter is the 'We' that you claim to represent haven't >give the public anything to get their job done, so they've went with the >'tainted/tasteless' solution that M$'s delivers. Something is better >than nothing. Hmmm... Why are you so bitter? If I have claimed to represent anyone, I think it is exactly those people of the public... I don't personally see how Java is going to help people get their jobs done any better. It is OUR abilities as programmers that provides solutions to those who want and/or need to use computers in their work... My guess is that Netscape has caused a productivity LOSS in the workplace... And with Java, all we are getting is "prettier" pages... Are we really going to provide any more content than would be available any other way? I personally find that Lynx gives me a significantly higher content ratio than ANY graphical browser... >Then disable Java in your browser. That's your business. I don't have Java in the first place... Sorry, but I don't think that the esteemed public even knows how to turn on/off Java, and I don't believe they have any concept of what kind of impact it has on them... >CGI doesn't cut the mustard. You can't put a nice front-end on a >back-end CGI script, and don't even begin to tell me that the current >crop of 'fill in the blank fields' is nice. CGI is too limiting. Hmmm... I'd like to see what you mean by a "nice" front-end... And ultimately, isn't everything "fill in the blanks" at one level or another? (How much CGI programming have you done?) >With CGI you're pretty much stuck, and with the current 'standard' of >using M$ you are limited in your choices of platforms to use on both the >remote and client end. I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean there... Are you saying that CGI is limited to Microsoft platforms? That is not correct... [re: perl, python and tcl interpreters] >Because they're not any more 'powerful' than Java, and there is still >the issue of security. If you're on a secure net, there is still the >issue of internal security. Java helps this. What do you mean by "powerful"? I would argue that perl, python and tcl are much more powerful than java applets, in the sense that those three provide more access to system services. A Java applet is limited to what its VM provides it. Are we going to have to provide two VM's, one for local apps, with unrestricted access to the system, and one for www apps, with limited system access? >MFC/Win32 == API/day. It changes about every 3 months, in often >non-backward compatible (*sarcasm* but it's better now) ways. Hmm, here, I would argue that WWW/HTML/Java is changing more rapidly than MFC... I AM open to disagreement on that one... Let's just say that it is ALL chaos! I am a (happy) subscriber to both the MSDN Professional (level 2) and Visual C++, as well as a quite devoted FreeBSD/SunOS user/programmer as well as a Mac user/administrator. I see lots of growing pains EVERYWHERE, with ALL of these platforms... >In any case, it's obvious to me that you know very little about Java (as >I admit I know little about Python). You need to do a bit more research >on it before throwing it out as stupid. I don't claim to know lots about Java - this thread started as a serious inquiry into what Java really is. So far, I'm not at all convinced that Java is anything but market posturing... -Doug Doug Wellington doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov System and Network Administrator US Geological Survey, Tucson, AZ Project Office According to proposed Federal guidelines, this message is a "non-record". Hmm, I wonder if _everything_ I say is a "non-record"...? FreeBSD and Apache - the best real tools for the virtual world! Check out www.freebsd.org and www.apache.org... Chuck - Lord of Darkness? Or Lord of Cuteness?
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