From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 1 16:24:22 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCEFABFD for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2013 16:24:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pmather@vt.edu) Received: from lennier.cc.vt.edu (lennier.cc.vt.edu [198.82.162.213]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01F3134E for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2013 16:24:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dagger.cc.vt.edu (dagger.cc.vt.edu [198.82.163.114]) by lennier.cc.vt.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r61GNkmH027143; Mon, 1 Jul 2013 12:23:46 -0400 Received: from auth3.smtp.vt.edu (auth3.smtp.vt.edu [198.82.161.152]) by dagger.cc.vt.edu (MOS 4.3.3-GA) with ESMTP id CDU06844; Mon, 1 Jul 2013 12:23:46 -0400 X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 198.82.161.152 auth3.smtp.vt.edu 0 pass X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 198.82.161.152 auth3.smtp.vt.edu 0 pass X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 198.82.161.152 auth3.smtp.vt.edu 0 pass Received: from pmather.tower.lib.vt.edu (pmather.tower.lib.vt.edu [128.173.51.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by auth3.smtp.vt.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r61GNkI6022635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jul 2013 12:23:46 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) Subject: Re: ZFS Panic after freebsd-update From: Paul Mather In-Reply-To: <20130701154925.GA64899@icarus.home.lan> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 12:23:45 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20130701154925.GA64899@icarus.home.lan> To: Jeremy Chadwick X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: freebsd-stable List , Scott Sipe X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 16:24:22 -0000 On Jul 1, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Mon, Jul 01, 2013 at 11:35:30AM -0400, Scott Sipe wrote: >> *** Sorry for partial first message! (gmail sent after multiple = returns >> apparently?) *** >>=20 >> Hello, >>=20 >> I have not had much time to research this problem yet, so please let = me >> know what further information I might be able to provide. >> [[...]] >> Any thoughts? >=20 > Thoughts: >=20 > [[..]] > Of course when I see lines like this: >=20 > Trying to mount root from zfs:zroot >=20 > ...this greatly diminishes any chances of "live debugging" on the > system. It amazes me how often I see this come up on the lists -- = people > who have ZFS problems but use ZFS for their root/var/tmp/usr. I wish > that behaviour would stop, as it makes debugging ZFS a serious PITA. > This comes up on the list almost constantly, sad panda. I'm not sure why it amazes you that people are making widespread use of = ZFS. You could make the same argument that people shouldn't use UFS2 = journaling on their file systems because bugs in the implementation = might make debugging journaled UFS2 file systems "a serious PITA." The = point is that there are VERY compelling reasons why people might want to = use ZFS for root/var/tmp/usr/etc. (pooled storage; easy snapshots; etc.) = and there should come a time when a given file system is "generally = regarded as safe." I'd say the time for ZFS came when they removed the = big disclaimer from the boot messages. If ZFS is dangerous, they should = reinstate the "not ready for production" warning. Until they do, I = think it's unfair to castigate people for using ZFS universally. Isn't it a recurring theme on freebsd-current and freebsd-stable that = more people need to use features so they can be debugged in realistic = environments? If you're telling them, "don't use that because it makes = debugging harder," how are they supposed to get debugged and hence = improved? :-) Cheers, Paul.=