From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 15 21:26:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A392D16A4CE for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B2143D2F for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:26:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B8F0D14730; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:26:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:26:01 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Linimon X-X-Sender: linimon@pancho To: "Gary W. Swearingen" In-Reply-To: <7dd67dbgwa.67d@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:02:50 -0800 cc: Mark Linimon cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org cc: Peter Schultz Subject: Re: To the Armchair Directors X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:26:02 -0000 On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > To paraphrase: Users should not bother developers with comments on > FreeBSD development. Users don't deserve to be heard and developers > don't need the comments anyway. Users who violate this rule should be > given a good flaming about pissing off programmers and making unworthy > demands and with a patronizing analogy about diners and chefs. > > I'm sure we all got HIS point, but you seem to have missed MY points > -- that this is a piss-poor way to deal with users and the situation > should (sic) be improved in several ways: If you feel that I missed your points -- which is what I was really *trying* to address, even if my fingers didn't say so -- I apologize. That what specifically why I sent that email. > First, users should be expected to want to voice their opinions about > FreeBSD development and should be given a FreeBSD forum in which to > do so. (I've seen this same situation even on chat@.) Well, chat@ is an anything-goes zone that IMHO is an much less friendly place than even -current. So I wouldn't recommend that. Have you tried -hacker and if so, what were your results there? (I subscribe to neither). > Second, if freebsd-current isn't the forum, the list's documentation > should say so in a polite but clear manner Perhaps, indeed, the charter should be amended to restrict it to very specific discussion, rather than more general ones. > Third, developers should (sic) not flame users for trying to help, > even if they are no help; it does more harm than good. The non-help > should just be ignored or a polite reference to the list docs should > be sent to the offender (only). I have absolutely no argument with this. In fact, I have been known to take developers to task for this very thing -- but generally in private email, under the theory of "praise in public, criticize in private". On occasion, out of anger, I'll criticize another developer in public -- and whenever I do it, if I don't cancel the posting in time, then I myself just become a further part of the overall problem, which is not what I want. At the risk of repeating myself, the reason why I replied to your posting, as well as any number of postings in the most-recent 'future of FreeBSD' thread, is an attempt to bridge this user vs. developer gap. It's very frustrating to attempt to do that, and then read: > (And I could expand on [these reasons] to explain why I've > pretty-much stopped even bothering developers with what they > claim to want, here and in the PR database. If you don't want to use these two options -- especially the latter -- then what would you suggest as an approriate way? I am not asking to bait you: I really have no clue how to resolve this problem from here. Perhaps we really do need some separate list such as freebsd-users or something similar. What would you suggest for its charter? How can your concerns, and those of others, best be addressed? mcl