Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 19:22:38 +0000 (UTC) From: "barney_cordoba@yahoo.com" <barney_cordoba@yahoo.com> To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> Cc: Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>, Antranig Vartanian <antranigv@freebsd.am>, Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Scott Long <scottl@freebsd.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=C4=87?= <meka@tilda.center> Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <867128400.2198.1708716158027@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <6af9739e-2be3-d0a8-bcb0-fd63196246e5@puchar.net> References: <CAOtMX2hAUiWdGPtpaCJLPZB%2Bj2yzNw5DSjUmkwTi%2B%2BmyemehCA@mail.gmail.com> <CAFF117C-4E6B-4339-8A9A-391ED720C508@freebsd.am> <a1a064e5-c968-b57-c87-f9fafac7bf@puchar.net> <3DCF4236-4DFA-448E-A378-DE04EC147B50@FreeBSD.org> <20240201000734.83a86f486691276e533530e4@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <782FA00C-3B90-49C8-85F7-AF784F42A3CC@FreeBSD.org> <6af9739e-2be3-d0a8-bcb0-fd63196246e5@puchar.net>
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Is there really nothing else to do other than debate re-writing stuff in s=
ome new language and adding more layers of cruft to the OS?
You should be working on streamlining the OS and making it easier for more =
people to help maintain. The first thing I did when I upgraded to 14 was ri=
p out the e1000 driver, which has become a Frankenstein project. iflib is c=
rap and unnecessary. Drivers are infested with netmap, RSS, ALTQ, pfil, pf =
and every other pet project for the last 20 years. =C2=A0These things shoul=
d not be part of the base code. Make the OS so these "features" can be wedg=
ed in without infesting the base code.=C2=A0
With big multicore systems getting cheaper the goal should be to get more n=
imble; not add more and more cruft and more languages to learn. "Unix" is w=
ritten in C. People who develop in unix know C. Therfact that there are a l=
ot of bad ideas and bad code in the FreeBSD isn't a reason to do things in =
another language. Fix the code.=C2=A0 On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at =
01:32:18 PM PST, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> wrote: =20
=20
=20
On Wed, 31 Jan 2024, David Chisnall wrote:
> On 31 Jan 2024, at 15:07, Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> wrote:
>>
>> First of all, NO MEMORY-SAFE language can write codes using volatile
>> memory objects, most notably, memory-mapped I/O and/or DMA driver.
>
> The first half of that is obvious nonsense.=C2=A0 Memory-mapped I/O is no=
t intrinsically unsafe, from a memory-safety perspective.=C2=A0 Even Java h=
as volatile objects and Sun Labs used Java for device drivers twenty years =
ago.=C2=A0 Having a memory-safe interface for MMIO is helpful.
This line above is complete nonsense. as most of that discussion.
Two things are certain:
- democracy is last phase of civilisation fall. Happening today.=20
Democracy, in case of FreeBSD will do the same for FreeBSD.
Already happened year ago for linux and others.
As there are more stupid people than clever.
If it wins - Rust and other nonsenses will become quickly standard. What=20
is certain - that there will be exactly opposite about security holes that=
=20
their claims. There will be far more that it is today.
- clever people don't need latest computers, so current FreeBSD can still=
=20
be used. With possibly some development to meet current needs. So not=20
really a problem.
Mark Twain once said "no amount of arguments are sufficient for idiot".
So this is my last post. Keep fighting.
=20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydpb3d1fabayahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px=
;"><div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=
=3D"outline-color: currentcolor !important;">Is there really nothing else t=
o do other than debate re-writing stuff in some new language and adding mor=
e layers of cruft to the OS?</div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"outline-color: =
currentcolor !important;"><br clear=3D"none" style=3D"outline-color: curren=
tcolor !important;"></div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"outline-color: currentc=
olor !important;">You should be working on streamlining the OS and making i=
t easier for more people to help maintain. The first thing I did when I upg=
raded to 14 was rip out the e1000 driver, which has become a Frankenstein p=
roject. iflib is crap and unnecessary. Drivers are infested with netmap, RS=
S, ALTQ, pfil, pf and every other pet project for the last 20 years. =
These things should not be part of the base code. Make the OS so these "fea=
tures" can be wedged in without infesting the base code. </div><div di=
r=3D"ltr" style=3D"outline-color: currentcolor !important;"><br clear=3D"no=
ne" style=3D"outline-color: currentcolor !important;"></div><div dir=3D"ltr=
" style=3D"outline-color: currentcolor !important;">With big multicore syst=
ems getting cheaper the goal should be to get more nimble; not add more and=
more cruft and more languages to learn. "Unix" is written in C. People who=
develop in unix know C. Therfact that there are a lot of bad ideas and bad=
code in the FreeBSD isn't a reason to do things in another language. Fix t=
he code. </div></div></div>
=20
</div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_9129252091" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
=20
<div>
On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 01:32:18 PM PST, Wojc=
iech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yqt3=
559612095" id=3D"yqtfd45526"><br clear=3D"none">On Wed, 31 Jan 2024, David =
Chisnall wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">> On 31 Jan 2024, a=
t 15:07, Tomoaki AOKI <<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:junchoon@dec.=
sakura.ne.jp" href=3D"mailto:junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp">junchoon@dec.sakura=
.ne.jp</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>>=
First of all, NO MEMORY-SAFE language can write codes using volatile<br cl=
ear=3D"none">>> memory objects, most notably, memory-mapped I/O and/o=
r DMA driver.<br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">> The first half =
of that is obvious nonsense. Memory-mapped I/O is not intrinsically u=
nsafe, from a memory-safety perspective. Even Java has volatile objec=
ts and Sun Labs used Java for device drivers twenty years ago. Having=
a memory-safe interface for MMIO is helpful.</div><br clear=3D"none">This =
line above is complete nonsense. as most of that discussion.<br clear=3D"no=
ne"><br clear=3D"none">Two things are certain:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none">- democracy is last phase of civilisation fall. Happening today. =
<br clear=3D"none">Democracy, in case of FreeBSD will do the same for FreeB=
SD.<br clear=3D"none">Already happened year ago for linux and others.<br cl=
ear=3D"none">As there are more stupid people than clever.<br clear=3D"none"=
>If it wins - Rust and other nonsenses will become quickly standard. What <=
br clear=3D"none">is certain - that there will be exactly opposite about se=
curity holes that <br clear=3D"none">their claims. There will be far more t=
hat it is today.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">- clever people don't=
need latest computers, so current FreeBSD can still <br clear=3D"none">be =
used. With possibly some development to meet current needs. So not <br clea=
r=3D"none">really a problem.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Mark Twai=
n once said "no amount of arguments are sufficient for idiot".<br clear=3D"=
none"><br clear=3D"none">So this is my last post. Keep fighting.<div class=
=3D"yqt3559612095" id=3D"yqtfd75391"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">=
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div></body></html>
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