From nobody Tue Aug 6 03:05:34 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdJ8s49brz5SVtQ for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 03:05:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdJ8s2NNMz4dGS for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 03:05:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cb64529a36so220478a91.0 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 20:05:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1722913547; x=1723518347; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=QF1MK5TnUyvucqtCThwkV4qDYeFkWX8b+mmS4akY7w0=; b=vMaEWAFzDIAvO+1xHiHWFU904nxVx3KCxQ4G9pyYzO/T97TOAm+jC5y89vfPbyaVxD 4Rg0k6Kk+4PyTnS/88ilBlSn8kJ8KrAlrGrh/r3eT3m8cc4XVafjB5qIaJui1zeh2ouq 3gv6ll6dAhb/NcYSbaZC9tOxM0UrP4Pv36HBn+uG9swEnyoNgcG+rnpnTrEENJYcAf41 YrkSZNtxDgXZpoOd7UvkP+blqr85fgeWc9Hd9vwAOBYEEGo1kOg3m5QK4R51N/fTObXi aeQsebvWCPRtRoUvL69NvwhBfFOoWFz7Pw2aRCLdEuYorBMBxz8Zd5fveEpmqx/kYBh4 fj0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1722913547; x=1723518347; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=QF1MK5TnUyvucqtCThwkV4qDYeFkWX8b+mmS4akY7w0=; b=QRmv9bpf4BPRWECYCHbbi+uxDrXP3FYCPOt+tW65jWV49U7EZvim9099Qmp/08q2js 6ZcrNYxTDSp+NlZMs7y9lDqxbEpIONO6qkY84TXflTX8RxKbDrE6SVYJjb/ELJL+ON+r 7G9THRgzWM4Qmh6xFObtHbeu25byUc8obgfaTwbdUoAKm2Qoyd82lvUHANBaCvbmHO6U bJz5AD6MjC1iFReAQkGFoobU6eSU4iUm+MkhPTWr6WyITj7p9g42YV/MurTC/wKxyykU CUj7ft7DlPbS5jw4p4KMd5YRI213UmiExJZ0d4SCN4MCzv1vkStXGjkBdGYR9FDhhNxs +/4Q== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCV2tJF8ZEF5xCmMiJpRkRrZSnMtn6KiNOtOhZT7HcNQ263l5md/CKBmHqy/kMeuiWeLWveKb6VSEP7ORF8WwEqU7ZmYq4mJgIhXIkI= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YylyxECT6xs0vV0Uxj4jv8YIGAmeO5zoQ7z2psLak1GKStEhURg WZglfzmknoleLFB9zaMu32P6cNDmHTO8HMKDfMNyfx+n+ehtavM8Pvdwiry+OqoR8HD7GANENWY 7Dgax8Gwu2JiyHBJmhRa8QdrMhl1c0dfgCKS71hwkxZBSR5AHM14= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF9zCFKUIINc7tXkGU0Y5o7pP3XzXoh/562bkeFnfWBz0CJOuizpKsh/xMySehinHliLr2d7zcH4vPWbUmcrKQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1809:b0:2c9:8afe:4f08 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cff93c8ec9mr12613844a91.2.1722913546586; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 20:05:46 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20240806074942.a8ef6b35a06ca0638e672327@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <20240806074942.a8ef6b35a06ca0638e672327@dec.sakura.ne.jp> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 21:05:34 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , FreeBSD Hackers , Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ec6acd061efb1174" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdJ8s2NNMz4dGS --000000000000ec6acd061efb1174 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600 > Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 > > > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > > > > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > > > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah < > bakul@iitbombay.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > > > > > .. > > > > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; > picking > > > up \ > > > > > > |phone reading this thread. > > > > > > | > > > > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 5= 0 > > > years \ > > > > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and > put > > > some > > > > > \ > > > > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo > lists to > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > > > > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, > though... > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > > > deleted. :-) > > > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > > > complains about loader.lua. > > > > > > > The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loader i= s > > its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when > bearssl > > and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage. > > > > But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing > > notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that. > > Exactly. I once thought why? But never seen (at least by default) > something written in Forth for base, other than loader. > 4th is too hard to program in and doesn't lend iitselfwell to string processing. > Maybe it would be when firmwares shipped for first hand users stop > shipping CSM that Forth is removed from base, ealiest. > Yea. Too many VMs want a CSM interface, so we'll be stuck with it for some time to come :(. Warner > > > > Warner > > > > -- > > > Tomoaki AOKI > > > > > > -- > Tomoaki AOKI > --000000000000ec6acd061efb1174 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:49=E2=80=AFP= M Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@de= c.sakura.ne.jp> wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600
Warner Losh <imp@bsd= imp.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600
> > Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp <= ;phk@phk.freebsd.dk= >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > --------
> > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes:
> > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in
> > > > >=C2=A0 <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F= 7FD619A89@cschubert.com>:
> > > > >=C2=A0 |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Sha= h <bakul@iitbom= bay.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >=C2=A0 |>All this talk won't lead to anythin= g much so a suggestion to
> > > > >=C2=A0 ..
> > > > >=C2=A0 |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day= of vacation; picking
> > up \
> > > > >=C2=A0 |phone reading this thread.
> > > > >=C2=A0 |
> > > > >=C2=A0 |Like much in this business (been doing this= stuff for about 50
> > years \
> > > > >=C2=A0 |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up= their sleeves and put
> > some
> > > > \
> > > > >=C2=A0 |skin in the game, expecting others already = with long todo lists to
> > \
> > > > >
> > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua.
> > > >
> > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot = loader, though...
> > >
> > > Warner
> >
> > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > > deleted. :-)
> > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > > complains about loader.lua.
> >
>
> The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loa= der is
> its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when= bearssl
> and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage.
>
> But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing
> notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that.=

Exactly. I once thought why? But never seen (at least by default)
something written in Forth for base, other than loader.

4th is too hard to program in and doesn't lend iitself= well to string
processing.
=C2=A0
Maybe it would be when firmwares shipped for first hand users stop
shipping CSM that Forth is removed from base, ealiest.

Yea. Too many VMs want a CSM interface, so we'll be stu= ck with it
for some time to come :(.=C2=A0

Warner
=C2=A0
>
> Warner
>
> --
> > Tomoaki AOKI=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
> >


--
Tomoaki AOKI=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
--000000000000ec6acd061efb1174--