From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 13 18:12:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C2BC37B400 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE5243E72 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rh@storm2k.com) Received: from user-119a7q7.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.31.71] helo=athlon.storm2k.com) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17emhz-0002UN-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:12:23 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813190756.00aa2bc8@mail.richardh.wsonline.net> X-Sender: storm2k@mail.storm2k.wsonline.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:15:10 -0600 To: Adam Weinberger , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: RichardH Subject: Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed In-Reply-To: <20020814004515.GX2818@vectors.cx> References: <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com> <1631.192.168.1.10.1028329834.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020802194944.R95370-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <2534.192.168.1.10.1028334913.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020803004445.GA11182@branwen.sfo.geekhouse.net> <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A) he is an idiot, FBSD was not designed to play quake or other crap on. B) If he needs to look at a f*ing word doc then either figure out star or open office or stick with Winshit C) show me that big ole RH box running as a web server that will run in excess of 5000 users and not crash, no prob with FBSD if you have a hard enough system and a good line. D) FBSD is designed as a server, not to play quake (again), or to look at hooters on the internet. It provides the hooters to Win users like him :) Please create and move this to freebsd-crap At 06:45 PM 8/13/2002, Adam Weinberger wrote: >this email belongs on freebsd-advocacy, not freebsd-questions nor >freebsd-chat. > >-Adam > > > >> (08.13.2002 @ 1735 PST): John-David Childs said, in 5.9K: << > > I was going to let this thread by, but I just can't help it. > > > > I've been using FreeBSD for almost eight years. Unfortunately, I > > haven't been able to contribute as much as I'd like...I keep thinking > > that someday soon this will change, especially as I get more and more > > pissed at the holier than thou attitude of most people on the questions > > and stable lists (as referenced by the example below). > > > > If you like FreeBSD because it's a niche OS that no one else you work > > with knows, or it makes you kewl, or you think it gives you job > > security, or you like the little devil, press delete now. If you like > > FreeBSD because the VM rocks, the ports/packages system kicks a$$, or > > the (until recently) excruciatingly close scrutiny of MFC'd patches and > > security issues, and you believe you have a civic duty to "show them the > > way", then you're the audience I'm addressing. > > > > Plain and simple...the reason that Linux is used by 10 people (I'm > > probably massively underestimating) for every FreeBSD user (not counting > > Apple's marketing campaign) has NOTHING to do with whether it's a better > > OS. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that Linux is easier to > > install *and maintain* than FreeBSD...and most responses on the > > questions/stable lists seem to think that's ok ("let the idiots use > > Linux, the people who know use *BSD"). The problem with that thinking > > is that if "no one" (term used loosely) uses *BSD, then > > > > 1) getting a user-base large enough to effectively trouble-shoot/improve > > the OS becomes difficult. If an up-and-coming programmer/hacker is > > looking ahead to which OS is likely to land them a job...it's not going > > to be Free/Open/NetBSD. > > > > 2) getting driver support from commercial entities is next to > > impossible. If there aren't enough users to justify demand, it isn't > > going to be (cost) effective to write/support it. > > > > 3) getting support to install it as a server OS in medium-large > > (especially non-ISP) based businesses is next to impossible. While *BSD > > may have scored some initial successes, and Apple's support of BSD is > > admirable (but Apple has always been considered a "niche" player, and > > has fsckd-up more "initiatives" than I can count), most corporate > > managers whose jobs are on the line will ask themselves "If the shit > > hits the fan...". > > > > Less users = less admins = less programmers = less (corporate) support = > > less installations = less demand = less users = > > > > Granted...I don't want any of the *BSD's to become a RedHat behemoth, > > but I would like to not have cream pie thrown in my face every time I > > suggest a FreeBSD server. Five years ago, when *BSD and Linux were > > roughly neck and neck, it wasn't that hard to sell *BSD on technical > > merits. Now...it's all about who will support it when I get hit by a > > truck. How easy is it to set up? How easy is it (compared to Linux, > > Solaris, SGI, AIX, HPUX, etc) to install and administrate? Can it do > > clusters? Can it (natively) participate in a SAN? Is there a > > commercial package for VLAN support? How 'bout a commercial firewall? > > (Yes, I know and you know that ipf/ipfw/TIS does the job, but once we > > leave the company the next admin either has to spend days/weeks learning > > ipf/ipfw or s/he'll trash it immediately, bad-mouthing your stupid > > decisions all the way up the management chain). > > > > And it all starts with a (relatively) easy to use installer (sysinstall > > has gotten MUCH better, but still has too many ways to get lost in > > TABS/ESC/whoops and still looks infantile to other text-based > > installers), and at least the option for a workstation install (not a > > "instant workstation" port, which could take hours or days to > > compile/install, but an out-of-the-CD installation of Gnome or KDE with > > (or without, by choice) popular options (Evolution, > > OpenOfffice/Abiword+Gnumeric, etc)). And yes, a "dummy-fied" package > > upgrader like RedHat Updater or MandrakeUpdate (which friggin rocks when > > you have to update 50 machines across an enterprise). > > > > BSD'ers have always been a finicky lot, and have always preferred the > > RTFM/do-it-yourself approach. That's great...to a point...but > > eventually will relegate us to the land of A/UX, CP/M, and OS/2 (now > > there's a niche player). "You decide which is right, and which is an > > illusion." > > > > As requested, replies are redirected to freebsd-chat. I'm going to see > > about getting some "official" time to work on the installer, or the > > docs, or both. Replies directly to my address will be /dev/nulled > > because of the list spam collectors...those of you who "know" will be > > able to find me :-) > > -- > > > > John-David Childs (JC612) Enterprise Internet Solutions > > Systems Administration 9616 Pecos St, Thornton > CO 80260 > > & Network Engineering A fourth .sig line is a > waste! > > > > > > On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 18:44, Jim Mock wrote: > > > On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 at 20:35:13 -0400, Mike wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Mike wrote: > > > > >> Stick with videos.. Please. -- > > > > > > > > > > Very funny. You mean "videoconferencing." And anyways, there is an > > > > > expression: "The best of both worlds," you know? > > > > > > > > "videoconferencing." > > > > It's two words. Not one. > > > > I know all about you. Your all about SPAM. Besides, ask a stupid > > > > question > > > > > > That would be "You're". If you're going to flame him for > > > "videoconferencing" at least spell shit right otherwise you end up > > > looking even more stupid than you did for flaming him in the first > > > place. > > > > > > > get a stupid answer. you know? At least get a decent name for this > > > > FreeBSD os you want to chop into linux and make it so any sweaty wife > > > > beating greaseball can run a "Server" > > > > > > Enough already. Take this nonsense off list if you want to have a > > > bitchfest. There's enough mail that comes through here without having > > > to scrape through this garbage too. > > > > > > - jim > > > > > > -- > > > jim mock jim@FreeBSD.org > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > > >> end of "Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed" from John-David Childs << > > >-- >"Oh good, my dog found the chainsaw." > -Lilo, "Lilo & Stitch" >Adam Weinberger >adam@vectors.cx >http://vectors.cx > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message