From nobody Thu Apr 27 17:40:55 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Q6jhM2c9Lz47jXf for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2023 17:41:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Q6jhM0zPtz3wmp for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2023 17:41:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-506b8c6bc07so14884070a12.2 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2023 10:41:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com; s=20221208; t=1682617265; x=1685209265; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cJewukmMAeWFTNb+263FskfsBfM9hFodRdx8+fOZV/A=; b=Rfiv5KgnDbDT4OVLRdleDualvzZ/+EoWenzyI3Ogy22oacCQnqxnha3VX3gk8z6KLG khXup0qUwXMQL1+9La3uG0KwfeHDX3fzYY8IZV4i2vZ3K+xj+lAs1YAob53tMIZjkQY/ OH6n5UDWkGteNRKMMfIJSnuyQtWLw7MDlv3mKa8HYmm2Wo/gu576HeVgdruW7MokMxoq iOCekevrlHFSVyPfDeinXf+BnkfE4MVRsU4bpM5/D24qdEc2M7h4fjvawJBcaXRnrtH/ gAmiT+/1DchADlaBxoxZaQlHm1UjYxIUePDBgiQOcn0Xo4c+miR0KmI/1wBlDBkbzT6A jiyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1682617265; x=1685209265; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=cJewukmMAeWFTNb+263FskfsBfM9hFodRdx8+fOZV/A=; b=YyUAkIV3sC+v2yWkXigEKYObzIZj/yPb7Lo2zIqFZ1ueMCOEMUcaDeYVLSZus3/wEk TQE1u6rFn2BttFi0B5g56mBDZTbc39NWrjtYW5VGWtpiJ9KdUCy0kijVBMOXcIT2C29m QAYCgovvekej25hd2lmsg2Y4w/FwqHhAIws6DhpkYpL/r5smCJEKIpnBETeUoNvj4IZx Q4kXDyDl9zFeS0d1BVE9po6RmpjO8lbHbz8008TVPS8x7EIwOoddFk+A6pBaHWGxNXwz z0zROvAiiHk9yjFtKec8prfYwXPKzlbfdyWyg6e6wiBamU+lMXIeshtgSCO4ADui0Ayb s4hQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDzjELEAgiPzi5uqU90vmfFk1cLEDTAXqwi/voidxuyp2gXnTwfB MROvbWNxm4+rIW5ipoHbiaZ517o65pWEhdOKpVVY/Fi6MXoV+pXt X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ4Tp2wRB7AwLzDzh2YoLAuBMlMDEP/MpDa4Im5z644KRClMIQfoPBT5D3Qz2DAmD8KFG8c/B4KoB3MX8Ske3x0= X-Received: by 2002:a50:ff0b:0:b0:504:923f:e657 with SMTP id a11-20020a50ff0b000000b00504923fe657mr2139619edu.35.1682617265415; Thu, 27 Apr 2023 10:41:05 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202304271732.33RHWLrw069782@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <202304271732.33RHWLrw069782@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2023 11:40:55 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: freebsd-arch , John Baldwin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000065fd2705fa54dc72" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Q6jhM0zPtz3wmp X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --00000000000065fd2705fa54dc72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > -------- > John Baldwin writes: > > > A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving forward. > > My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say publicly > > that we anticipate not supporting them in 15. > > If we do, the first two questions we will get back are: > > 1. When does 15 happen ? > Late 2025, give or take 6 months would be our recent cadence. while we might want to change this cadance, any decision here should likely assume that cadence and we can make adjustments to the plan based on a hypothetically changed cadence would bring. So we'd plan on removing the 32-bit platforms sometime in 2024 or early 2025 at the latest, but as soon as the end of this year. So you'd no longer be able to run 'main' on these platforms after a year or two. > 2. How long time will some branch of 14 be supported ? > At least until 2027 if history is a guide (de-facto is about 2 years after the next major branch) with fading levels of support. I think the 'support model' would place it around June 2028 somewhere assuming we release 14 in June. There's clearly some fuzziness here, but for planning purposes one should expect updates to trail off in late 2026 or early 2027 and critical updates stopping sometime before 2028. At least that's what I'm observing with EOL of 12 that's pending... as well as what's happened more organically for 10 and 11. Of course, the above is my opinion, and it's phrased such as to give some less vague timelines to John's proposal. Is this helpful? Warner > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetenc= e. > > --00000000000065fd2705fa54dc72 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 11:32=E2=80= =AFAM Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.f= reebsd.dk> wrote:
--------
John Baldwin writes:

> A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving forward.=
> My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say publicly > that we anticipate not supporting them in 15.

If we do, the first two questions we will get back are:

1. When does 15 happen ?

Late 2025, giv= e or take 6 months would be our recent cadence. while we might want to chan= ge
this cadance, any decision here should likely assume that cade= nce and we can make adjustments
to the plan based on a hypothetic= ally changed cadence would bring. So we'd plan on removing
th= e 32-bit platforms sometime in 2024 or early 2025 at the latest, but as soo= n as the end of this
year. So you'd no longer be able to run = 'main' on these platforms after a year or two.
=C2=A0=
2. How long time will some branch of 14 be supported ?

At least until 2027 if history is a guide (de-facto is abou= t 2 years after the next major branch) with
fading levels of supp= ort. I think the 'support model' would place it around June 2028 so= mewhere
assuming we release 14 in June. There's clearly some = fuzziness here, but for planning purposes
one should expect updat= es to trail off in late 2026 or early 2027 and critical updates stopping
sometime before 2028. At least that's what I'm observi= ng with EOL of 12 that's pending... as
well as what's hap= pened more organically for 10 and 11.

Of cours= e, the above is my opinion, and it's phrased such as to give some less = vague timelines to
John's proposal.

= Is this helpful?

Warner
=C2=A0
=
--
Poul-Henning Kamp=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| BSD since 4.3-tahoe=C2=A0 =C2= =A0
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.=

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