From owner-freebsd-arm@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 6 21:03:34 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arm@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7A725D for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:03:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ie0-x232.google.com (mail-ie0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4CA117 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:03:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ie0-f178.google.com with SMTP id bn7so5451053ieb.23 for ; Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:03:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=182Kxar1KIJ1Ly6Lzsjl8bn3A6eXg2m51Tu6n6wv6jQ=; b=UpE7+n2N86rbJEsXSCdyz7M9SHjhHrFhTjYYi+DjdJ03R9VfHIsk4cu0h8gojfqX20 JNake51U2Aga1BID48rSILYohR3ZqMg9YtBfwbGeA8Vhcm+2rW53H/tbbmOYZpdV40sw +Q+gVpde7tvo3YUo1dOKd1EI3V5TzASoOT0tf+TKlDM5iTSkh14wVLsDzmLGnqP3VurH Z+9ZNfwkCKAvnweJHK6MltBVjKdLfD2zThNbx/xpodmFYVdkYjhK+JZNoNywDmYcuKzq P/8caA8xNd/RQszct2//m/NzPIqREJ6xZcrqfT1p+WwkRachMae+yij3vrh/3dPhv033 RSTg== X-Received: by 10.50.209.4 with SMTP id mi4mr2853492igc.40.1365282213590; Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 53.imp.bsdimp.com (50-78-194-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.78.194.198]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xf4sm8068211igb.8.2013.04.06.14.03.32 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Subject: Re: "Beyond Buildworld" (was Re: RFC: "Crochet" build tool) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <8FCD7391-B9E3-478A-86E8-4414F750804D@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 15:03:30 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <50CC112D-2B90-4E66-9D5F-829274D041D7@bsdimp.com> References: <5DFA61DB-70E4-4C3D-ACA0-995A175706C8@neville-neil.com> <5151B454.9090402@ceetonetechnology.com> <1CBF1416-3237-4DCE-8D61-7E998265C887@neville-neil.com> <1364311809.36972.27.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <5151D045.80305@thieprojects.ch> <5151D9DB.7050001@thieprojects.ch> <167CF57D-01E3-4857-BF0E-C40B00FED226@netgate.com> <515ADB81.7090908@freebsd.org> <515DF177.9060907@freebsd.org> <4DC4C47C-D503-4155-8FAF-6D5C88D8F67C@freebsd.org> <8FCD7391-B9E3-478A-86E8-4414F750804D@freebsd.org> To: Tim Kientzle X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkl5NAeAk5eJzRlaRuqQgs5ljgOu19agRZyOtG3MnbIiUfQTA1uDFKpXvKUv7YUJtJ9FlvG Cc: "freebsd-arm@freebsd.org" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arm@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the StrongARM Processor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:03:34 -0000 On Apr 6, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Tim Kientzle wrote: >=20 > On Apr 4, 2013, at 10:40 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: >=20 >> Hm, how about something a bit more modular? >>=20 >> As in, adding hooks to make release / nanobsd / tinybsd to let us tie >> in the embedded platform requirements, like building bootloaders and >> such; >=20 > George is setting up a DevSummit track for BSDCan (the > "Beyond Buildworld" WG) about this exact issue. > Will you be there? I'll be there. > I'll be there and here are a few of the issues I'd like to discuss: >=20 > * What hooks are appropriate? In part, Crochet is an experiment > to explore ways of factoring these issues, but I don't know > release or nanobsd well enough to judge whether the > ideas I'm coming up with would fit well into those. Most of the ones that NanoBSD has are quite useful... I'm sure there are = many others that would be good in addition, since NanoBSD hasn't kept = pace. > * How do boot loaders get managed? Crochet has been > downloading, patching, and building directly from upstream > sources, but that's getting tedious fast. Can we maintain boot > loaders as ports?[1] I think that we can and should, to the extent we need to do so. Most = boards have a perfectly good boot loader already, but some like the = popular RPi don't. Thankfully, the images for the boot loaders tend to = be separable from the main image that people load on them and run/boot. > * What policy should FreeBSD project use to determine which > specific boards to release official images for? For that matter, > should the project release "official images" at all? Or should > we leave that in the hands of other parties? In general, we shouldn't be aiming to release a general loader / kernel = that runs everywhere. To release lots of other images will get difficult = quickly. Alas, the current kernel infrastructure is a little weak to do = this (actually it is impossible at the moment). We should have clear = goals here, though, otherwise we'll quickly get bogged down. If we = require multiple images, then we should automate the snot out of that, = or if a popular board requires custom hacks. To this end, I think we should examine making ubldr position independent = code. Once we have this, it can relocate itself and load the actual = kernel at a board specific location it can determine from the FDT... > I'm not expecting to come up with final answers to these > at BSDCan, but I'm hoping to get enough people involved to > at least enumerate some of the avenues to explore. Yea, if we can get a good consensus on a direction, we can all pull in = that direction, rather in the somewhat fractured different directions we = have been pulling in to doate. > [1] If someone wants to try creating a port of some boot loader > as an experiment, I'm happy to collaborate on integrating it into > Crochet to see how well that works. I would suggest trying > to build a port for RPi U-Boot as a first proof-of-concept. That would be cool... Again, I worry about getting in the business of = too many board support, but we may want to do that for the most popular = ones. Warner=