Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 17:45:56 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@mu.org> To: Andrey Chernov <ache@freebsd.org> Cc: Harrison Grundy <harrison.grundy@astrodoggroup.com>, "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Massive libxo-zation that breaks everything Message-ID: <AFD8256C-94A1-4E34-94F2-A98314BD5ED6@mu.org> In-Reply-To: <54F5103C.4020108@freebsd.org> References: <54F31510.7050607@hot.ee> <54F34B6E.2040809@astrodoggroup.com> <CAG=rPVfcB1Fy_8mHq-t5Ay07yrzuSGthQ0ZcGzvp0XG9gSSzkg@mail.gmail.com> <54F35F29.4000603@astrodoggroup.com> <54F429EF.5050400@freebsd.org> <54F46536.8040607@mu.org> <54F4C03F.7030704@freebsd.org> <54F4FECB.90501@freebsd.org> <197AA5DC-0591-4F71-BF10-51A5D8104C11@mu.org> <54F5103C.4020108@freebsd.org>
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> On Mar 2, 2015, at 5:37 PM, Andrey Chernov <ache@freebsd.org> wrote: >=20 >> On 03.03.2015 4:30, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Andrey Chernov <ache@freebsd.org> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> On 02.03.2015 22:55, Julian Elischer wrote: >>>>> On 3/2/15 5:27 AM, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 3/2/15 4:14 AM, Julian Elischer wrote: >>>>>>> On 3/1/15 10:49 AM, Harrison Grundy wrote: >>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> That does seem useful, but I'm not sure I see the reasoning behind >>>>>>> putting into base, over a port or package, since processing XML in b= ase >>>>>>> is a pain, and it can't serve up JSON or HTML without additional >>>>>>> utilities anyway. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> (If I'm reviving a long-settled thing, let me know and I'll drop it.= >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> trying to understand the use case for this.) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> To me it would almost seem more useful to have a programmable filter >>>>>> for which you could produce >>>>>> parse grammars to parse the output of various programs.. >>>>>> thus >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ifconfig -a | xmlize -g ifconfig | your-favourite-xml-parser >>>>>> with a set of grammars in /usr/share/xmlize/ >>>>>> then we could use it for out-of-tree programs as well if we wrote >>>>>> grammars for them.. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The sentiment of machine-readable output is nice, but I think it's >>>>>> slightly off target. >>>>>> we shouldn't have to change all out utilities, and it isn't going to >>>>>> help at all with 3rd party apps, >>>>>> e.g. samba stuff. A generally easy to program output grammar parser >>>>>> would be truely useful. >>>>>> and not just for FreeBSD. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I've been watching with an uncomfortable feeling, but it's taken me a= >>>>>> while to put my >>>>>> finger on what it was.. >>>>> Are you sure it's not the hairs on the back of your neck standing up >>>>> due to NIH? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Juniper has been doing this for years and it's very useful for them. >>>> I'm not saying the ability to generate machine readable output is wrong= , >>>> but that the 'unix way' would be to make a filter for it. It seems that= >>>> the noisy people don't >>>> agree with me so I will not stand in the way of progress.. >>>=20 >>> I agree. Even if someone starts with json and xml only, it will need >>> some 3rd format soon, and adding any new format have real possibility to= >>> break all already existent (like adding json+xml breaks plain text in >>> pipes). Moreover, it violates Unix principle 'one tool =3D=3D one genera= l >>> function' and lots of other rules like Eric Raymond ones, making each >>> program looks like systemd. It makes harder to merge changes from other >>> BSDs too. >>> Proper way to do this thing is to back out all changes and write >>> completely separate templates-based parser - xml/json writer. >>=20 >>=20 >> Read the library. It doesn't care what output format it needs. It is up t= o the translation layer to do it. You could even do a csv format or most any= other structured output format without changing the userland utils. >=20 > I am happy the library can do it. So please stop to change userland > utils and back out all libxo changes from them. My concern is userland > utils, feel free to implement anything you need/want without changing > them in this ugly way. The responsibility is on you to provide something better, both the architect= ure AND code. So if you want it backed out, then write something better. Oth= erwise step back and let progress happen.=20 -Alfred.=20
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