From owner-svn-src-head@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 09:34:53 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: svn-src-head@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8BC4106566B; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 09:34:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ceri@submonkey.net) Received: from scuttle.submonkey.net (scuttle.submonkey.net [208.111.43.184]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16B48FC08; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 09:34:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from cpc6-cdif11-2-0-cust58.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com ([62.255.146.59] helo=shrike.submonkey.net) by scuttle.submonkey.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PBNsg-0005jx-Hb; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:30:42 +0000 Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1PBNse-000KSr-7r; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 09:30:40 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 09:30:40 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: Gary Jennejohn Message-ID: <20101028083040.GA5488@submonkey.net> References: <201010271848.o9RImNSR019344@svn.freebsd.org> <20101027212601.GA78062@freebsd.org> <4CC899C3.7040107@FreeBSD.org> <20101027214822.GA82697@freebsd.org> <4CC8A89D.5070909@delphij.net> <20101028152418.A916@besplex.bde.org> <20101028095538.24147119@ernst.jennejohn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20101028095538.24147119@ernst.jennejohn.org> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: Ceri Davies Cc: Doug Barton , d@delphij.net, svn-src-all@FreeBSD.org, src-committers@FreeBSD.org, Bruce Evans , svn-src-head@FreeBSD.org, Alexander Best , Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: svn commit: r214431 - head/bin/rm X-BeenThere: svn-src-head@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SVN commit messages for the src tree for head/-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 09:34:53 -0000 --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 09:55:38AM +0200, Gary Jennejohn wrote: > On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:22:05 +1100 (EST) > Bruce Evans wrote: >=20 > > On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Xin LI wrote: > >=20 > > > I think what really defeats -P is the fact that the file system or > > > underlying data storage would not overwrite data on a file at sync(). > > > COW is of course one of the case, journaling MAY defeat -P but is not > > > guaranteed. FS with variable block size - I believe this really depe= nds > > > on the implementation. > > > > > > If I understood the code correctly, UFS, UFS+SU, UFS+SUJ, msdosfs and > > > ext2fs supports rm -P as long as they are not being put on gjournal'ed > > > disk, ZFS zvol, etc., and no snapshot is being used. > >=20 > > And that the underlying data storage us dumb. Any flash drive now > > tries to minimise writes. It wouldn't take much buffering to defeat > > the 0xff, 0,0xff pattern. Wear leveling should result in different > > physical blocks being written each time if the writes get to the > > lowest level of storage. > >=20 > > And that block reallocation (done by ffs1 and ffs2) doesn't choose > > different blocks. > >=20 > > > It seems to be hard for me to conclude all cases in short, plain Engl= ish > > > but I'm all for improvements to the manual page to describe that in an > > > elegant and precise manner. > > > > > > Maybe something like: > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > BUGS > > > > > > The -P option assumes that the underlying storage overwrites file blo= ck > > > when data is written on existing offset. Several factors including t= he > > > file system and its backing store could defeat the assumption, this > > > includes, but is not limited to file systems that uses Copy-On-Write > > > strategy (e.g. ZFS or UFS when snapshot is being used), or backing > > > datastore that does journaling, etc. In addition, only regular files > > > are overwritten, other types of files are not. > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > Summary: it is very hard to tell whether -P works, even when you think > > you know what all the subsystems are doing. > >=20 >=20 > All this discussion leads me to the conclusion that we should just > remove the -P functionality and add a remark to the man page that that > was done because it isn't guaranteed to work on all file systems. I was about to suggest the same thing. Sounds like -P requires far too many ducks to be lined up in order to work. Ceri --=20 Haffely, Gaffely, Gaffely, Gonward. --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFMyTSvocfcwTS3JF8RAn69AJ9GRZnT5EdnwaDyu2juqGFRZPH2AACgiinY H+lZcVTTdV/QDr5e846LoM4= =gdId -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/--