From owner-svn-src-head@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 10:25:47 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: svn-src-head@FreeBSD.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1233) id 5BE551065672; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:25:47 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:25:47 +0000 From: Alexander Best To: Gary Jennejohn Message-ID: <20101028102547.GA56817@freebsd.org> References: <201010271848.o9RImNSR019344@svn.freebsd.org> <20101027212601.GA78062@freebsd.org> <4CC899C3.7040107@FreeBSD.org> <20101027214822.GA82697@freebsd.org> <4CC8A89D.5070909@delphij.net> <20101028152418.A916@besplex.bde.org> <20101028095538.24147119@ernst.jennejohn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20101028095538.24147119@ernst.jennejohn.org> Cc: Doug Barton , d@delphij.net, svn-src-all@FreeBSD.org, src-committers@FreeBSD.org, Bruce Evans , svn-src-head@FreeBSD.org, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: svn commit: r214431 - head/bin/rm X-BeenThere: svn-src-head@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SVN commit messages for the src tree for head/-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:25:47 -0000 On Thu Oct 28 10, Gary Jennejohn wrote: > On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:22:05 +1100 (EST) > Bruce Evans wrote: > > > On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Xin LI wrote: > > > > > I think what really defeats -P is the fact that the file system or > > > underlying data storage would not overwrite data on a file at sync(). > > > COW is of course one of the case, journaling MAY defeat -P but is not > > > guaranteed. FS with variable block size - I believe this really depends > > > on the implementation. > > > > > > If I understood the code correctly, UFS, UFS+SU, UFS+SUJ, msdosfs and > > > ext2fs supports rm -P as long as they are not being put on gjournal'ed > > > disk, ZFS zvol, etc., and no snapshot is being used. > > > > And that the underlying data storage us dumb. Any flash drive now > > tries to minimise writes. It wouldn't take much buffering to defeat > > the 0xff, 0,0xff pattern. Wear leveling should result in different > > physical blocks being written each time if the writes get to the > > lowest level of storage. > > > > And that block reallocation (done by ffs1 and ffs2) doesn't choose > > different blocks. > > > > > It seems to be hard for me to conclude all cases in short, plain English > > > but I'm all for improvements to the manual page to describe that in an > > > elegant and precise manner. > > > > > > Maybe something like: > > > > > > =============== > > > BUGS > > > > > > The -P option assumes that the underlying storage overwrites file block > > > when data is written on existing offset. Several factors including the > > > file system and its backing store could defeat the assumption, this > > > includes, but is not limited to file systems that uses Copy-On-Write > > > strategy (e.g. ZFS or UFS when snapshot is being used), or backing > > > datastore that does journaling, etc. In addition, only regular files > > > are overwritten, other types of files are not. > > > =============== > > > > Summary: it is very hard to tell whether -P works, even when you think > > you know what all the subsystems are doing. > > > > All this discussion leads me to the conclusion that we should just > remove the -P functionality and add a remark to the man page that that > was done because it isn't guaranteed to work on all file systems. > > Why give users a false sense of security? If they're concerned about > data security then they should use geli or something similar. that might be the ultimate solution. also one could use security/srm instead. +1 here. ;) question is: should -P be removed entirely or be made a no op? cheers. alex > > -- > Gary Jennejohn -- a13x