From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Wed Apr 20 14:53:15 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B3CB157C9 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:53:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paul@gromit.dlib.vt.edu) Received: from resqmta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13B311B4C for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:53:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paul@gromit.dlib.vt.edu) Received: from resomta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.230]) by comcast with SMTP id stTXaR2RN9sFTstVBalv7D; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:53:13 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1461163993; bh=U/+6wimtIZ9utyORz6i6wM/Qo+LmsAsbJQUPJJbFmdQ=; h=Received:Received:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:Date: Message-Id:To; b=c4BehaDrKICSNJtHhiPE3sQHncmYlCynY2FpwncfSiJY8m/OHBQeLZ6lcGQRT6Tvj LO5EVPWwdB95oBNtPYAK/5WF2tQDrSJ1StefZICjC3mjCUhDB3g9p/QIGE3D3bfAlm vbUoLFbs6qhG8qZCGE6px/ZYDGDq0r6ap5fdCap93AACJiPzbPGEVKYIYcs8kaBlIT FSgixwkKKvHumN9KpEMHsvT/8WoBctV0n2umwcgcbaRhc+4nlcQ/mvjSeELZ1ZOSyp Xc4W+VT2w3JCIzB8U8+JYBAmNXwR3aUx3tiufR87pOel2vafPtUxOrp7S8Z+v4cL32 pSFWlk1+qLKXA== Received: from [IPv6:2607:b400:24:6002:d4f4:75c1:86a:11f8] ([IPv6:2607:b400:24:6002:d4f4:75c1:86a:11f8]) by resomta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ket21s00R4k9gyM01et7fv; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:53:11 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Subject: Re: [CFT] packaging the base system with pkg(8) From: Paul Mather In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:53:02 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C8A7C64-8D7C-4B2D-9387-294FBF049941@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> References: To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:53:15 -0000 > Message: 20 > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:48:06 +0300 > From: Slawa Olhovchenkov > To: Dan Partelly > Cc: David Chisnall , Julian Elischer > , Nathan Whitehorn , > freebsd-current@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: [CFT] packaging the base system with pkg(8) > Message-ID: <20160420094806.GJ6614@zxy.spb.ru> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >=20 > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:00:36PM +0300, Dan Partelly wrote: >=20 >> IMO, the number of packages per-se is not a problem as long as you >> can manage them without arcane commands, aliases, pipe - filters, >> or scripts. (they all have their place, but less , the better) My >> point is that I don't really want to keep on my head a Unix hacker >> hat. I (and presumably many other humans ) like simple things,which >> allow me to type a short command (preferably the whole system should >> be simple enough to be explained in one-two pages in handbook) , >> wait for completion, and get on with my life. >=20 > Yes and no. > While number of packages don't see outside internal -- this is > irrelevant. > After possibility of update individual package -- nuber of packages is > impotant. > Take fresh 11.0. Before 11.1 update only kernel. What you system have? > 11.0? 11.1-RC3? How you name it? How identify it for take support on > forum or mail list? >=20 > How name system, updated all w/o compiler? or only some services? > Currently we have simple naming: >=20 > 10.3-RC1, 10.3-RELEASE, 10.3-p7, 10.3-STABLE r123456. > This is shortly and clearly identify system to anyone. Superficially, it does, but in reality it doesn't. I can grab the = source for 10.3-RELEASE and then add a lot of WITH_* and WITHOUT_* = settings in /etc/src.conf and build a kernel and world and end up with a = system that is missing a lot of functionality that is ordinarily present = with an empty /etc/src.conf. That missing functionality could be the = reason for a problem I am having with my "10.3-RELEASE" system. That is the reality of FreeBSD *now* and I still am able to get help on = FreeBSD mailing lists when I have problems. The case of a moving target is truer of those who choose to run -STABLE = or -CURRENT. If I say I'm running 10.3-STABLE three months from now, = what version of the code base am I actually running? Sure, now we have = the SVN revision number to help pinpoint the version of the code being = run (setting aside the effects of /etc/src.conf), but back in the days = when FreeBSD was in CVS we didn't have that nicety and yet people were = still able to get help with problems running -STABLE or -CURRENT on the = mailing lists. A packaged base is just another way of describing the state of the = system. People on mailing lists will still be able to help people fix = their problems, but they'll just use different information to pinpoint = the precise components affected. Arguably, a packaged base will make it easier to help people, because it = makes more explicit the dependencies of different parts of the system. = It's been my experience that the interactions and impact of the various = /etc/src.conf settings are not entirely well known, at least to = end-users. Cheers, Paul.=