From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 20:45:26 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43CC106564A for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2011 20:45:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayasaman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wy0-f182.google.com (mail-wy0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 219718FC13 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2011 20:45:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wyf23 with SMTP id 23so3316455wyf.13 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2011 13:45:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3LIQWbwVSdPpEhKzzPbjKrfx8EzfP45hPOyvUkRe4pg=; b=pQ/g32Y/Z1ma6thhZrvErL2QwwtDlzxCt3PI+NCX9B/VMJz71Bop0wMYJLiRiLH+Qb irBbKKLgYfdbLlHAOscflGyORWDmCqUu9oTcRLuc8Ltz+7lxmzTQhFxAo0UgRvTwdLXx hhQuOcODDARLTOAC0wKq3DeV1/cdfiY8M+SkU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hz+96AXJdbu/sPII+egjz70qU2UkUpH5Wy/IzB7ZEyc+LdG/ui+Iysmpu8IT3JKqgi Ty0+9U3HVJAFQvwnm4agcTucYjqj317B7A6rG5YEVSC84ZrrU2m9rRWGtU2kiMFaGw4L GS55AbHxLu6sVoLfLuNh8zIbFnOfslbexJpxA= Received: by 10.227.143.134 with SMTP id v6mr4135726wbu.55.1307306724662; Sun, 05 Jun 2011 13:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.16.0.3] ([78.186.130.149]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fw15sm2428816wbb.27.2011.06.05.13.45.22 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 05 Jun 2011 13:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4DEBEADF.1030605@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 23:45:19 +0300 From: Kaya Saman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <4DE8CF13.1040304@gmail.com>, <4DEA6060.4158.4CD3CCC9@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk>, <4DEA7ADA.40804@gmail.com> <4DEB5A7B.6149.3922DC9@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4DEB5A7B.6149.3922DC9@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [direct] Re: Strange system lockups - kernel saying disk error X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 20:45:26 -0000 On 06/05/2011 01:29 PM, Dave wrote: > Hi again. > > Thanks for the reply. > > Re the old disk drives. I have several 10 year or older IDE drives here, > from 2G to 40G in 24/7 use, and (so far!) they are happy. I also have a > few much newer SATA drives that fail to even spin up. > > Like anything, there is a "Bath Tub" curve re hardware failure rates. > Lots of infant mortality in a short period, that we rarely see because > they fail at the factory. Then a l o n g time wih low rates of > problems, evnetualy slowly rising as things age, until it's truly cheaper > to replace than repair. > > I used to rebuild the old 14 inch drives as part of a past job. One of > the few tasks where no one complained of the time you took, as the more > care you put in to cleaning out the debris of the last failure, then > setting up and calibrating the head positioner etc, there was a > measurable improvement in performance (low error rates.) I learnt a lot > doing that. > > I found Gibson's Spinrite almost by accident, before I knew of the > Security Now series (OK, Windows biased, but still relevant..) But > didn't get a copy 'till a friend's wife's PC "died" saying there was no > OS to boot. She ran a small business, and had no backups. (Whats new?) > I said I'd take a look but couldn't promise anything. > > After a few evenings messing arround with one of the linux rescue disks, > I realised the hard drive was more or less OK, but some of the data was > corrupt, probably part of the boot loader or OS (Win2000 at that time.) > > I knew from working on the big drives in the past, you could sometimes > "tweak" the head position and force it to read data slightly off track, > sometimes resulting in a good read, if not all the track, then part of > it. Do that enough, and with some manual memory editig tools, we > sometimes stiched a small file back together that way, before scrapping > the platters and rebuilding the drive. > > Spinrite does that automaticaly, by moving off track to varying degrees, > then seeking back again, and as all drives start to read before the head > has fully settled, if you do that timed to the physical disk rotation, > and do it enough times, you can with averaging and numerical analasys, > plus the drives own ECC, rebuild the data sector by sector. > > It does work the drives hard though, some laptops you have to run with > the drive cover removed and an extra fan to keep the it cool! > > Anyway, I bought a copy of Spinrite, after much thought, and lots of > phone calls asking if I'd fixed it yet. When I tried it on one of my > own "good" drives, just to see how it worked. It almost instantly said > it found a bad sector on that, much to my surprise, "fixed" it, and yes, > that old box then booted noticably faster, as the drive itself didn't > need to repeatedly read and correct whatever it was to get a good copy. > So I tried it on her laptop. > > It took a couple of hours, but it reported a cluster of bad sectors early > on, but managed to recover all the data, so it said. The rest of the > drive looked OK. > > On taking out the bootable CD, and cycling the power, the machine booted > like nothing was ever wrong with it! Just in case, I backed up as much > as I could to a CD drive, did some updates and the usual routine tidying > etc, and gave it back to them, with the CD, and instructions to perhaps > plan on replacing the drive if not the PC sometime (a Toshiba 4600) just > in case. > > Well, I had more free beers for the next two months than I could handle, > plus a steady stream of similarly sick PC's etc, and that old laptop is > now mine after they did eventualy replace it, and still working 24/7 > (dispite other problems, it had Coke spilt into it destroying the battery > charge and management systems!) It now run's a software defined radio > for beacon monitoring. This in fact... > http://g8kbv.homeip.net:8008/60m/ral-at-wbx.html > > Spinrite has also won me favors with many other people over the last > couple of years. So far, there is only one drive it couldn't work with. > Oddly, from this machine I'm using now that had no outward issues, but > after one update didn't boot, as C: had sudenly ceased to exist! A > Maxtor 40G IDE drive. > > The drive itself fails to initialse and present itself correctly to the > BIOS, so all on that is lost. (I did have backups though!) > > It's not the electronics card, I swaped that with the other known good > one (two identical drives were in this machine) same problem. I since > learnt though, that most modern hard drives, boot their own firmware from > what is effectvely cylinder -1, or off the other end of the list. That > is what is corrupt I suspect, but not even Spinrite can get to that to > help, so I now have a desktop paperweight.... > > I can well understand why people are sceptical about it, after all, how > can "Software" fix a "Hardware" problem. But once it's seen to work > people then just have to have their own copy. I think I'm indirectly > responsible for at least 4 extra sales, not that I get any commission, > sadly... > > Just like the Linux based recovery and self contained AV disks, and also > Memtest86, I carry a copy of Spinrite arround with me too. > > I just wish I could come up with something as successful, and able to > continue selling over and over... > > As for changing mobo caps, it's not dificult, but it sure takes a lot of > time and care. Cap's in PSU's too go bad (Usually the Low Voltage ones) > again, not dificult to change, but take care. There's often considerable > High Voltage stored in some places, that can bite you, and it hurts! > > Lastly, large slow running fans last the longest, and are nice and quiet > too. Just regularly blow the "dust bunnies" out of the systems (two or > three time a year?) and keep things like the CPU cooler and PSU clean, > and your hardware will work for many years just fine. > > Oh.. CPU coolers. If your system has the ability to monitor the CPU > temperature, get to know how that behaves depending on the software you > use. If it starts to slowly rise, but the room temperature is not > correspondinlgy warmer, also cleaning the dust from the cooler doenst > seem to help. It may need the cooler removing, the old heat transfer > compound removing and cleaning, and fresh compound using when you refit > the cooler. This issues seems worse with the earlier single core P4's, > that had a very small contact area to the cooler. > > At least Intel chips just slow down as they get hotter (cycle skipping) > so as not to burn out. Some AMD's will destroy themselves if the cooler > fails!... There is a YouTube video somewhere, showing a PC with an > Intel CPU with no cooler getting slower and slower till it almost stops. > > I hope you get things sorted out, one way or another. Life is so much > nicer if you don't have to keep messing with the blessed things! > > I have a sick Land Rover to fix too. Gearbox rear oil seal, also rear > drive shaft UJ's. At least I can use big hammers on that sometimes... > (Therapy!) Oh, the grass needs cutting, and I'm now also under > instruction to change the bed, when the cat's finished sleeping on it!!! > > Best Regards. > > Dave B. > > > On 4 Jun 2011 at 21:35, Kaya Saman wrote: > > Subject: Re: Strange system lockups - kernel saying disk error > > >> [...] >> >> >> >> Hmmm Hard drives do not like heat! Check the PSU voltages with a >> meter, for accuracy and ripple. Failing SMPS's can do all sorts >> of odd things. >> >> Capacitor problems. Been there done that. They can be changed >> for very low cost, other than your time. >> >> DaveB >> >> You might guess by know, I know far more about hardware than I do >> about software, but for the latter to run well, the former must be >> good. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> >> >> Many thanks Dave for all the suggestions!!! >> >> To be honest I think the drives are fine but the system is just soooo >> old including the IDE drives. >> >> I mean if I get a SATA/IDE USB adapter I should be able to backup the >> drives to the new DAS system I will have in place shortly since I am >> much more in favor of running Nexenta Core 3 OS with ZFS spanning the >> 16x drives meaning a total of 36TB with 2 internal drives used for >> logging and caching. >> >> Then this system will be obsolete. However, I will keep your >> suggestion of using spinwrite in mind next time I encounter issues! >> >> BTW I respect your H/W knowledge that's quite in deep :-) thank you >> for your insight. >> >> > with Pipex which is now bust, then I moved out of the UK and now >> everything is roasting hot> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> Kaya >> >> >> __________ NOD32 6175 (20110602) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Thanks Dave for this very graphic and insightful story :-) It was a pleasure to read and a nice display of how experience really does prevail over things!!! I liked the radio chart on the site provided :-) - what exactly is it measuring? Background noise? I think not having a UPS for over a year killed me with the power cutting out almost every weekend for 10 - 20 minutes/night. Now I have UPS, 2x 1500KVA APC systems... nice but need the network and temp monitoring cards. Need plenty of £££ for that! Plus the new server I am intending to build as the DAS box already cost $2000. Regards, Kaya