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Date:      Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:31:13 -0300
From:      AT Matik <asstec@matik.com.br>
To:        freebsd-ipfw@freebsd.org
Cc:        ipfw@freebsd.org, Julian Elischer <julian@elischer.org>
Subject:   Re: ipfw changes being contemplated..
Message-ID:  <200704190631.14634.asstec@matik.com.br>
In-Reply-To: <4626B633.7070903@elischer.org>
References:  <46268689.1080301@elischer.org> <200704181951.20174.asstec@matik.com.br> <4626B633.7070903@elischer.org>

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On Wednesday 18 April 2007 21:22, Julian Elischer wrote:
> AT Matik wrote:
> > On Wednesday 18 April 2007 18:08, Julian Elischer wrote:
> >> Also One possibility of 6 would be to make a family of
> >> firewalls rather than one, that work together,
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > probably I do not understand what you are trying to achieve ...
> >
> > basicly I am missing a reason for this "making it complicated"
> >
> > the beauty of ipfw is it's easy use and easy to read, short, it is clear
> > so why do you want to complicate it?
> >
> >> e.g. L2FW (layer 2 firewall) that knows about MAC packets etc
> >> but calls IPFW for ip packets should it want to do so.
>
> this comes from working within ipfw.
> there is a bit of "mess" added to make it (an IP layer firewall)
> know about and handle link level packets.
>
> It might be cleaner to have a separate link level firewall
> then to have the hacks in ipfw to make in know about L2 stuff.
>
> This is not something I'm working on, just something that occurs
> to me every time I have to look inside the firewall code.
>

I think it is better for me to understand and wait for what you wrote in=20
another mail:=20

> "I think I'll firm up my proposal a bit before trying to explain too much=
=20
more"



> > that is perfectly possible today as it is
>
> I KNOW it can do it.. but it is a mess as far as information scope is
> concerned.
>

you mean logging? good there are some missing points today but adding bette=
r=20
log sensus does not need a general ipfw change right?



> >> IPFW in turn the ability to call TCPFW
> >> for some sessions and TCPFW would know about
> >> modules that in turn know about different
> >> protocols.
> >
> > you can perfectly write sh functions which you call under certain
> > circumstances, there is no need to reinvent the wheel
>
> you can write sh functions in ipfw?
> I don't get your point here.

ah you know what I mean, not in ipfw but in the ipfw script you can use any=
 sh=20
programming you want and use it=20


>
> >> IPFW could be called from the IP layer, or from the FW of a lower laye=
r.
> >> each layer would have the ability to do some inspection of the payload
> >> to help decide which higher layer might be relevant.
> >
> > please give a real world reason and/or example for this need, which then
> > of course could not be solved be actual ipfw functions or rc.firewall
> > script engineering
>
> I work on a product that monitors on a bridge and at the IP router level.
> We have some of our own changes to ipfw.
> the rules get to be fairly tricky when you have so many
> entry points coming into the same firewall.
> front, but if I use a  "keep state" for a packet at one
> layer then I can not use "keep-state" in another
> situation for anything that may see the same packet as there is no way
> to keep separate states for different entry points.
> having separate firewalls for diffrent entry points allows me to
> have different state at different layers even for the same packet.
>

I don't know if skipping ip packages to one point and layer2 packages to=20
another is not exactly what this is about, I also do not know how you can=20
achieve statefull firewall on layer2 packages, sounds kind of nasty to me

look, anyway this seems to become then a product hard to understand for mos=
t=20
users

I really like to repeat that ipfw is one of the best application we have=20
because of it's straight forward logic, easy to understand by anybody ( sin=
ce=20
the beginning). And overall it is working. Nothing is perfect but changing =
it=20
would be a wrong decision. Changing how it works will bring lots of problem=
s=20
and obviously bugs and bugs and bugs. Imagin how many people want to hang y=
ou=20
if their production servers do not firewall anymore. I only remember a smal=
l=20
thing like the proto ip versus proto ipv4 thing which was not well announce=
d.=20

Anyway, enhancements (if really) can be interesting but only so long as the=
y=20
do not touch any of the actual functionality and logic. Otherwise you bette=
r=20
write a ipfw_nested fork to do what you pretend to do and then it is up to=
=20
the people use it or stay with what they are used to.



Jo=E3o







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