From nobody Fri Sep 6 07:19:44 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4X0SKb2VJlz5WCR5 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:19:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R10" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4X0SKb1bwWz4LB7; Fri, 6 Sep 2024 07:19:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1725607187; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=lZDg1SHq/48COzahB5urrlQfl5nnzXdsCO9uxRi+Q3U=; b=EZ4Lq7MJmqbvm1kNjyQPWBQLQZHLUgYHiZmO44H85GTzg0G5NkIlThAELLNOd89pSifA74 ISjlsj+H3yPiVhax2lZ266B6liBo49MtUEzoLL0sSipR6K3anffJaY3pQ8PXlyE8KtWRYV jL9sMKIXeWZPAoC0M3XUegjtjK4njMb5OG7Q1Wv8uTrXE21yTLF2aJXecMl/qXghRKbek6 hiXySbT/2NxREO1mCVgMfD8/ZhcFBek9mYZKfcDr7UDWOMSqRU/CuGc4/Nj1afo3ze1hI1 WTriZj4WUANjo1LXJRq8n/K2dMj+weJIE9cbFekllB/6Z7qYlsVvNzib7WYUeg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1725607187; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=eUOX9SKTkCyd7k7zMPMIq03m9Re7BMkpbLv3WekSy/4Td4e2xDqnciPb0laHDTy9VU5ERN ysNKQCiD1gVSvCayH4iHtKtrObadukgjTC/FhfFXy+xHhMtrLr1mlyLVF2rQWmZHqz05PS 4k1TAY0ztIHDumYOrfQgse4gAq9n2NnkoVt2VF5HWga9KofszN30nBMRexgxLfoBYbwgPT yJHnypWjpsB0VCcJEWdqrn1Z9nHpk26EqRmVyZ40Exv41+LCfMpHI0yw+b7ajIoN6DhqOF 5Syl/nGTv3sUH5bSTIRxh3iE6F5Nl6u1sv8ZSmCAHN29grA4LkcZ8YXnrV/bjQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1725607187; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=lZDg1SHq/48COzahB5urrlQfl5nnzXdsCO9uxRi+Q3U=; b=yrI/e2pz7qZ1dX46i3qlGfSq3+UwV0K5CzXnio7x0RGpSYDnK02de+uIzrOgAOyJlp5/yi RG0BudGiFUnGjeUvALlAfnMjVPlEROEAIjq/9TTAjwbIS9yOTgIoD3mcb6Lk9SBn3wfmNi KW103qj596xP7mE2FffF2lJc4sO0Ahi+cswyE0By0wnoIzPBH7+aV7GRfA+j50K2+cqXl6 k+mZRgN5wfas7bcflaJVGPunjQYxdcqa+md9fIcZ7ROPyBgkRtJBXUCp/MQE7qMaUATeUc L+2xCu3uV9Y5gIbTx0eh5DrBRaI6kWPzz5o87hMy9+gUWbegnxx6bYi1ghW1+w== Received: from aniel.nours.eu (nours.eu [IPv6:2001:41d0:8:3a4d::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bapt) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4X0SKb0W7KzH9m; Fri, 6 Sep 2024 07:19:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: by aniel.nours.eu (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 609CC23B1CF; Fri, 6 Sep 2024 09:19:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2024 09:19:44 +0200 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Alan Somers Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in any system) Message-ID: References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: On Thu 05 Sep 12:09, Alan Somers wrote: > By now I expect that most of you have seen the long list of new > security advisories that just came out. Strikingly, all were the > result of memory handling errors. And none of them wouldn't have > happened if their respective programs had been written in a > memory-safe language. > > In fact, of all the C bug fixes that I've been involved with (as > either author or reviewer) since May, about three quarters could've > been avoided just by using a better language. > > The real takeaway here is that C is no longer sufficient for writing > high quality code in the 2020s. Everyone needs to adapt their tools. > Programmers who don't will increasingly come to resemble experimental > archaeologists, i.e. people who learn flintknapping to "keep the > knowledge alive". Such people are valuable, but definitely niche. I > for one don't want my career to go in that trajectory. > > To summarize, here's the list of this week's security advisories, and > also some other recent C bug fixes of my own involvement: > Jumping on this one, I think at least that is my understanding from the previous threads, that using some rust has not been rejected, so keeping discussing at length and trying to force convince people will not lead to anything that would make progress on the rust integration process. On the other side there have been many "work to do, problem to solve" that has been raised to allow to make it happen, so far I have seen none of the rust people actually trying to work on solving those issues, I would have expected now to see patches, design proposals, questions and so on to move forward. For the people who want to see rust usage in base, it is time to start the actual hard part if you don't want those threads to be seen as "yakafokon" (as we say in french, I don't know if there is an equivalent of it): - make a plan - write patch and poc on how to integrate to our build system - discuss with the people who volunteered to help on the build system, on the release engineering, or on the packaging side. - create AND lead the working group to make this happen. Best regards, Bapt